Dungeon Run: Thwack
Chapter: Comics, Season Five
Sam warned him (and Dallas).
Remember when The Id DM interviewed me a few years ago? Well, he did it again! Check it out.
Hey, did you know that Karthun is going to happen (I hope)? IT IS! There will be a Kickstarter launching this month and I could not be more excited (and terrified). This will be the first big project from Exploding Rogue Studios, my new partnership with Tracy Barnett. It is going to be a full-size, full-color, system-neutral campaign setting detailing the world of Karthun: The Lands of Conflict.
This is my dream to have a big, beautiful campaign setting out there for folks to enjoy and I hope you will give the page a look when it goes live. In the meantime, here is some preview art!
Hover-Text: Why was the mushroom the life of the party? Because he was a FUNGAI! PLAY US OUT, KATO!
Did you hear the joke about German sausage? It was the wurst!
I felt like you could have ended this slightly better after all of that speech from Dove.
I have a feeling this isn’t over just yet
Do you see that face. Do you see that background.
This ain’t over by a mile.
Seconded.
This comic is the quiet before the storm. I have a feeling that going to be a repeat of what the Chain Lord did to Dove’s character, but this time it is Sam doing it with words to Dove. Can someone say “Points of Order”!
A rule I have pointed out to people.
It’s one thing for a player to cheat, it’s another for a DM.
The ability to fudge dice for the sake of a good story is a GM’s perogative, however Dove has committed the worst sin against GM’s I know, and I know because it’s been done to me.
Never, I repeat, NEVER accuse a GM of cheating unless you are 100% willing to back up those words. Because if they have done their jobs and played the game right, you’ve officially made an enemy.
Good to see him on his heels
wow man i love it when Sam gets pissed off lol, he doesnt blow up but he has that sort of quiet anger wich is even more scary lol, yay for the normally quiet guys/gals!! 😀
its the quiet ones you have to be scared of
I’ll just leave this here.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BEWARETHEQUIETONES
Oh, gods. A TV Tropes link. Time to time skip a few hours.
Luckily, I did not click on that link – I have things I need to get done this morning.
Tropes link!
“Let’s do the time warp again!”
Sam’s response? Underwhelming. I would have beat pigboy’s fat little ass, but that’s just me, he’s a way better person than I am. also, two things:
don’t forget, Sam is Double Trouble rolled into one!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheNiceOnes
he’s nice, AND quiet.
the other thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfNxgdUEOF4 ah, gotta love good piano.
I recently found a story about a Call of Cthulhu game where a player known for being cool with character death got fed up with his character constantly being killed by the most ridiculous things. He got real quiet and thoughtful when the GM called a break; another player saw the signs and tried to stop whatever the other player was planning, but the wheels were in motion.
The next session (about a week later, if I recall), the player came back with a character and a 200 page backstory; the point of such a long backstory was that, since no one would ever read the whole thing, or remember it, he could change it whenever he wanted to have whatever ability he wanted.
I refuse to tell the rest of that character’s story, because it’s not my story to tell; all I can tell you is, if you haven’t already, read the tales of Old Man Henderson, the only character to win Call of Cthulhu.
It’s always the quiet ones you have to look out for. Beware the wrath of the man slowest to anger.
LOVE the Old Man Henderson stories! So entertaining!
Yeah… the ones slowest to anger are the scariest…You beware of them because they’re the ones with the most self-control.
They’re the most dangerous in two flavors:
1) The Volcano – This is the one that will bide insults and when they finally blow they let out all the anger all at once. Think pent-up-rage-school-shooting-violence.
2) The Chessmaster – Personally, this is the guy the scares me the most. He’s also the type of player between Old Man Henderson. This is the kind of person that has uncanny self-control… the “Revenge is best served cold” type of person… the type that shuts down all emotion and begins an almost maniacally dedicated pursuit, enhanced by the most rigorous of cold, calculating logic to find weak points and devastate you.
(Honestly, the ultimate coup of the Old Man Henderson wasn’t what he planned and played in-character. It was his ability to recruit the other players to his cause, shut down the game, and immortalize it on the internets.)
Youre doing a kickstarter for that setting?
Awesome.
Anyone know if kickstarter takes paypal from canadians?
Kickstarter actually goes through Amazon for payment. So if you can use it on Amazon you can use it on Kickstarter.
We’ll also be doing a PayPal option as well, just to cover our bases.
Thats good to know, cause amazon doesnt take paypal for whatever reason.
Thanks for clarifying, I assume the rewards would be the same regardless of it not going through kickstarter?
That is the plan! I’ll keep you posted if there is a logistics snafu though.
There isnt a reply button to your other comment for some reason so ill say it here.
Thats awesome, from what has been put into the comic so far this setting seems really very interesting and if I can afford it (and there are indeed no snafu’s) I will happily contribute some to the creation of it.
This is -almost- as satisfying as seeing him on fire.
Almost.
Also, I keep trying to put the check into the disk drive but it doesn’t seem to be working.
That just reminded me
Of that old windows program for the “free Coca-Cola holder”. You hit “hold can” and the CD drive opened.
Ahh, simpler times.
Notice the two d20s methinks the dove ist shitting on the table if you catch my drift
It’s much faster to have two d20’s when you’re attacking with two weapons, rolling a bluff along with your attack, making a tumble/attack check, etc. In all those cases, you want them to be different colors so that you can assign the blue one to something and the grey one to something else, for instance. Heck, although I’m usually only rolling one d20, I carry 5 just in case. I usually roll all my dice for a round at the same time.
this may be a newbie-ish question, but did you design that karthun logo? pretty damned awesome, that is.
I did indeed!
…annnd it has been a very long day. read, tom, read. *sigh*
OH SHIT
And lo, Dove was banished from ye olde gaming shoppe. Damning him to the abyss of amazon.
Breaking lurk mode to say I love your comic, your story, your characters and that I am super stoked to hear Karthun is coming to Kickstarter for my ultimate gaming enjoyment! 🙂 :p 😀
I know breaking Lurk can be a big step and I appreciate it! I’m excited about Karthun and I hope you enjoy it when it finally arrives.
I’ll be interested to see how your book is laid out. I really hope to use it as the foundation for a homebrew campaign with D&D 5e that I’m starting to work on like I did a few years back with the Book of the Righteous. In the next month we’re starting WotC’s Hoard of the Dragon Queen and see how that goes, so we have quite a bit of time. Hopefully the timing works out on Karthun!
Will Karthun be Pathfinder ruleset compatible? If so, I’ll give you all the money. ALL THE MONEY.
It’s going to be system-neutral with suggestions on how to run it with systems but we are planning a full PDF GMs Guide stretch goal that goes into detail on how to run Karthun in several systems: Pathfinder, 13th Age, Dungeon World, FATE, and 5e Dungeons & Dragons.
Not a lurker per se (my fiance reads this comic avidly, and with this storyline I’m hooked as well…) But will that GMs guide stretch goal include Savage Worlds, mayhaps? That’s his go-to rule set 🙂 lol.
Oh yeah! Sorry, SW is planned as well. I skipped it in that list. My apologies.
Oh bossman I’m going to Savage that baby…..but nicely.
5E D&D… so…dang.. sexy.
That it is. I’ve only had a brief read-through in the back corner of the comic shop and I think I’ve fallen in love. PRECIOUS IS OURS!
And you just literally made my wallet spring farther open good sir…. damn your awesomeness. We will reach that goal by hell or high water!
Dungeon World! Awesome I just picked that up!
What about Old School Hack? Is that even a thing anymore?
Back to lurking…
That is magnificent. You’ve got my support on that fact alone.
It’s a pretty new system, and probably not widely played yet, but I’d like to see Iron Kingdoms (IKRPG) looked into as a system for the setting.
Hell, yeah! I saw 13th Age on that list. Take all my moneys!
yup. i will definitely have to drop some cash on this kick, i definitely want this book and will love to see some of the other variants you’re going to have (going to miss dragons tho, i remember earlier statements saying they’re extinct)
Breaking my lurk as well, to say that I only found your comic a few weeks ago. And I’m looking forward to seeing the kickstarter, you can count on my backing can’t wait to get my hands on Karthun.
Love the comic, keep it going, cheers.
Thaaaaaank you! I will do my best.
Was this supposed to remind me of Beetle from Wind Waker? Because this made me think of Beetle from Wind Waker. 😀
Dove takes 15 word bubbles to make another player’s victory and past successes taste like utter shit to her. Sam puts him in his place with just one. Sam also kept his word about what would happen if Dove talked that kind of shit to another player at one of his tables ever again. I’m sure Pops is damned proud of his son right now.
and that this is good enough to pass initiation for the dm’s guild thingy
Oh damn you may have just peeked behind the curtain!
It didn’t occur to me that Dove could be the ultimate final test, how to deal with a true douchebag of a player, and sticking to your guns when the dice are on the table. Also dealing with cheating.
Maybe Sam will get his DM after all…
Man, I’ve been waiting for the setting info for Karthun since it was introduced in the comic. I’ve already introduced a couple elements into my game, and my players couldn’t be having more fun. Also, that logo is seriously BadAss. I’ll definitely be backing the kickstarter once it launches!
It just doesn’t work; at least, not in my opinion.
Dove gave quite the beatdown, has built up a head of steam… and gets freaked out by the expression on Sam’s face?
Mind you, I don’t know what Sam could have said to freak Dove out, and Dove just walking out on a triumphant note would leave a lot of readers unhappy… but this scene just feels off.
A quite, calm rage can be VERY intimidating.
While I got the impression Sam was angry, the flow of the two days’ comics just doesn’t mesh for me. Perhaps it’s Dove’s reaction. I can’t see him being unnerved by “calm rage” especially as he deliberately trolled to get a reaction (and to martyr himself so he can claim he was discriminated against so Sam’s “buddies” would win instead).
notice the aura around him suddenly. I don’t think that was just for effect methinks he has finally tapped into”The Narrative” Atleast I believe what the power is referred to as.
I believe Dove’s face is him reacting to being hit by the dice Sam (presumably) forcefully threw at him. You’ll note that Dove has some lines of clear anger in his face, as well as some of surprise. He was most likely going to launch into another tirade before Sam put him in his place.
Btw, great job on making the expressions so accurate, Brian! You do great work, and I’m a huge fan. 🙂
What we don’t see is Sam throwing the dice. I would think he needed to stand up to reach them and then he threw them hard. Sam doing something so physical was a shock.
That might do it. I’m not sure how hard the dice were thrown, but combine Sam’s facial expression, his standing suddenly, and the throw/toss, it might have cowed Dove for the moment.
I’m going out on a limb here and guessing the dice weren’t thrown all that hard, but the fact that they just jumped from the table directly at Dove when Sam glared at them is why Dove was so startled.
Plus, I know from personal experience that the quiet, calm, with just a touch of swearing (for flavor) putting of one in their place is highly effective (especially on those bit accustomed to being stood up to)
I think the other thing going on here is that Dove may be accustomed to having others back down from him as he lays out his overly verbose attack/self-defense, as he does deliver it with an air of confidence. He saw Dallas back down and was possibly expecting the same from Sam or an explosion of anger, either of which satisfies Dove’s ego. Sam stayed calm yet maintains a serious demeanor that tells Dove he can’t intimidate him, so Dove has to regroup.
In other words, Dove is a stereotypical bully. He just doesn’t show it in the steal-your-lunch-money way.
That could be. I don’t recall much of being bullied as a child but what I do recall is that the bullies thrived on the response as much as to physically or verbally abusing their victims.
Sadly, swearing does give Dove some satisfaction in that scenario. A simple “get out” would probably have served better (even if would be less satisfying to readers wanting Dove put in his place).
Just a campaign setting? Aww, I thought you were going to make the actual system a real thing.
PS: Great series.
Maybe his system is another stretch goal? We’ll haveto wait for the KS to find out.
There are a *lot* of systems out there, and most of us have familiarity with at least a few of them.
Others have noted Pathfinder is going to be one of the systems it’s set to work with, and that works for me and mine at least.
I mean… if FFd20 is a thing, I don’t see why this is any kind of sad news for this game.
Well, I for one am excited about the Kickstarter.
Looking at the last post again, I don’t think that Dove is getting banned from the store for any cheating alledged or otherwise. He was warned against personal attacks on other players. The final panel of the last comic is just that.
There was never any actual allegations of Dove cheating mentioned in the comic until Dove brought it up himself. I’m not trying to defend the guy, I’m just saying that the readers are making a lot of assumptions about what’s happening in the comic between postings based on the conversation within the comments.
I wouldn’t be suprized if he were indeed cheating. But there hasn’t been enough established to prove it, other than in the court of public opinion. Regardless, the personal attack on Dallas is definately grounds for permanent dismissal.
And, yes, another lurker breaking their silence. Brian I love your work and hope I can throw money at your kickstarter.
Yeah. Dove is being kicked because he got warned about personal attacks, and after that one Sam’s about 3 seconds away from ripping his arms off and beating him to death with them.
The fact that Phil is the one who brought up cheating is why people are suspicious of him! It’s called the Suspiciously Specific Denial, and is a pretty strong indicator of a guilty conscience.
At the risk of sounding like a Dove apologist (which I’m not, don’t get me wrong, neither his arrogance nor his misogyny holds any place in a gaming world which should strive to be all-inclusive in crafting an enjoyable shared experience), I’ve got to give Dove a little credit. He was willing to actually let the dice fall where it may in a way Dallas never did and was never going to.
Maybe I just don’t like Dallas, or maybe I’ve had too many negative experience with GM’s playing favorites, fudging dice, blatantly cheating to go after players they didn’t like, but had the same circumstances arose where I was killed at an open setting behind a GM screen, I’d be sore as well. I’d have left it as a tainted victory instead of pulling out a personal shame, and for that, Dove bears no reprieve from me, but I can’t say that the circumstances, such as they were in isolation, wouldn’t have caused me to raise my eyebrows.
Don’t get me wrong, Dove’s walk isn’t half as strong as his talk given his actions on the table. However, Dallas came in with an OOC-grudge. Dove’s about as reprehensible as you get, but bringing that sort of meta in is asking for a toxic scenario. And honestly, I can’t trust Sam to run a clean game. He’s got it out for Dove. Dove bears responsibility for his own actions, of course, and truly, he had it out for Sam as well.
Hell, I was rooting for Carlos. One of the few truly willing to RP it from start to finish.
Karthun seems strange to me. Maybe. It’s been a while since I played d20 (I’ve never been a fan of save-or-die), and it seems like there’s so many big things that I would always feel like a small, particularly useless fish. But there’s a lot of twists on the system from a setting standpoint that I find fascinating.
Yeah, but Dallas was the one who, when things looked their worst, actually proposed that they work together to take down Tyraxion. But instead, Dove decided to switch sides so he could win by default, presumably so he wouldn’t have to “share” the win, especially with Dallas. He might have tried to cover it up as “superior tactics”, but that sounds like a load of crap.
Yes, Dallas had every intention of taking Dove down – and admitted as much – but after being warned to cut that shit out, she did. And while Sam might be willing to fudge a roll in a regular game, I don’t think he’d do it here, because that could damage the store’s reputation.
First of all, great f$&%ing comic. The whole thing. All of your stuff just tells the stories I want to hear and the characters are people I would LOVE to have at my table. The good ones, of course, not the Dove-types.
Anyway, thank you and thank you for the comics. You keep writing them, I’ll keep reading them. And I’ll send you pics of my holiday trees again this year.
Second, I’ve only ever backed 1 Kickstarter before. It was the Order of the Stick reprint drive. I backed it because I LOVE that comic, I met the author at GenCon several years ago, and I believed in his product. I’m telling you right now that I will definitely be backing the Karthun KS. And I’m hoping that the book will come out soon enough for me to use it in my next D&D campaign. I run 4E so I’m thrilled it is going to be system neutral!
Thanks again. You rock. And I can’t say enough nice things about you and your comic. Keep fighting the good fight!
good to see Dove getting some of what he deserves.
Behold the gaze of BANHAMMER
after running into you at denver comic con I would have to say that I am thrilled to see the kickstarter coming up and will contribute what I can.
I am guessing by neutral campaign world it will be like your bestiary. Where any system may be used, and there are tidbits of advice on how things can work.
I look forward to seeing Karthun and hopefully getting to use it with my gaming group in the future.
“There will be a Kickstarter launching this month” (Didn’t read the rest because I couldn’t stop staring at that phrase.) I will literally drop all of my pledges right now so I can be sure to back this. I have been yearning for more of this setting and will make this my priority. Being system neutral means I don’t have to worry about making it work in the BareBones Fantasy engine.
Wow I just noticed that 63% of my pledges where for fantasy games and accessories. over the years, so it doesn’t have the severity of importance that I thought that sentence should have. Lol, I think I might have a problem and need a Gamer anon group, because you know I need ANOTHER group ;P
@Skwyd, OoTS is fraking great! I use it all the time as an example that narrative will always trump flashy art.
Go Sam!
All I have to say about this.
I have to admit that I loathe Dove so much, that after his little tirade I nearly decided to stop following this comic. I ultimately couldn’t do that though, because I know that even the comic’s creator hates Dove and people like him. I hope that Dove gets black balled from any and every gaming table around.
Even though I don’t play anymore and have no clue how Kickstarter works, I’d be tempted to back this just because I’m already fascinated by the glimpses of the Karthun we’ve seen in the comic and would love to know more. Also my step-son is starting to head in the RPG & tabletop wargaming direction, and I think this would be a good setting if he does get really into it
Seconded. I haven’t played in years, but I love your art and I love the world you’ve built. Sign me up.
Do you hear that sound? Bitch got served!
As someone who considers himself an “elite gamer” and probably feels he should be treated as royalty in all the gaming shops in the world, a store ban would hurt Dove far more than the solid kick in the nadgers that he actually deserves. I’ll censor myself a little here as the appropriate word seems to cause far more offence in the States than it does here in England (dunno if it has different connotations), but he is a proper **** 😉
Oh trust me, the C-word is plenty appropriate for this kind of behavior, even over here.
Though to answer your question, yes, there are different connotations. Stateside, the word “cunt” is considered vastly more vulgar, rude, and downright offensive than it is in English country. Generally speaking, we tend to save it as the most awful and insulting term for truly despicable people (allow me to reiterate, this means it works for Dovie here).
Nobody really knows why.
Cheers for that. Bloody funny thing is language, especially when it comes to what people consider offensive, for instance my nan didn’t mind too much people swearing in front of her but went mental if you said “pig” and insisted we call them “goofys” instead, for reasons that were never explained
Am I the only one who thinks Sam’s words would have carried more weight if instead of dropping the F-bomb, he had simply said, “Get out”, or “Get out of my store”?
I usually find it unnerving when a clearly upset person suddenly goes ice cold, says as little as possible and deliberately avoids cursing despite their anger.
No, you’re not. In my experience, swearing usually indicates a loss of control, and that seems to be exactly what Dove was trying to provoke – gain control of the situation by causing Sam and Dallas to lose theirs.
It’s the quiet, controlled, and focused anger that can be truly frightening, because it can be directed exactly where it can do the most damage. Someone just blowing their top and losing self control is easy to dismiss as irrational.
Honestly though, the single use of “fuck” is, in no way indicative of a loss of control. I may be mistaken but I think it’s pretty well founded in the series that most of the characters don’t mind the use of expletives. I can look you dead in the eyes with an absolutely serious, 100% calm demeanor, in complete control of myself and tell someone to “Get the fuck out” without blinking an eye.
If he had gone off on an expletive laden tirade “What the fuck? How dare you fucking ignore my directive to not personally attack other players you worthless sack of shit…” etc, that would be indicative of a loss of control.
As someone who VERY rarely swears, much like Sam, I get a very strong reaction whenever I do. It’s because if you’re known as “that one person who doesn’t really swear/doesn’t like swearing” then people will IMMEDIATELY pay attention when you do swear. People will actually come up to me and ask if I’m okay if they hear me swear, even if it’s during a LARP or because I’m repeating what someone else said. Using new words for emphasis can, if used properly and rarely, have a significant impact.
Think of it like if you had a friend who just despises going for jogs, or playing video games, and you’ve known them for years and they’ve always been like that. Then, suddenly, you’re walking your dog and you see them out for a jog, or you’re hanging out and they’re like “hey, mind if I try out some Mario Kart or something?” You pay attention to that. You go “wait, why are they suddenly acting different?” It’s much the same here.
Sorry, that got kinda wordy for what I was trying to say. tl;dr If you don’t swear much, then using just a single swear can give you everyone’s eyes and ears.
Not quite as violent as I was hoping, but Sam is good to his word.
I was kind of hoping Krampus, I think that’s what it’s name was, would show up and cart him away. Like Candle Jack
Shhh, that’s a later issue. Stop dropping spoilers :p
No Kale! Don’t say Candleja-
You realize it doesn’t work unless you say his full name, right?
You know how Brett is Santa’s son, maybe Dove is the Krampus’ offspring? Sure would explain a lot…..
No, Krampus is cool. Sure, he was a bit pissed when Brett ripped his horns off, but wouldn’t you be?
Nice speech, Dove. Too bad your ass got sacked!
This is probably a moot point, but after someone else’s comment about the dice, I looked at the last few panels again. I find it interesting that Dove’s set of dice contains two different d20, but different colors. It might have been more telling towards a possible cheat if he’d had two colors for all the dice rather than just the 20 sided, indicating the cheater die for the important rolls and the standard die for the inconsequential rolls.
Again, it matters not, I agree that Sam booted Dove over behavior rather than allegations. And I find it simply amazing that people exist like that in the gaming world. I’ve always (ALWAYS) played with friends, and we always meshed, and had tremendous times. It seems like this guy wouldn’t make it fun or worth playing at all. The one time we had a player get downright douchey in a campaign, we collectively ganged up and killed his character from the group. He never acted like that again.
I forget the info on Dallas from the past strips, or was that all new background on her? Will there be more?
As I recall, there wasn’t a lot of information about Dallas’ (er, Darlene’s) new product until the Dungeon Run comic, in the maze, when she was trying to get the rest of the gang to team up against Dove.
Jeannie asked if it had to do with the Dead Iron debacle, or words to that effect.
That’s about it, so far as I know, so there may be more detail in either future comics or in a printed collection.
I’m pretty sure that’s actually Dallas’ d20. All her dice are gray, so I just figured that her one got mixed up with Dove’s… Although, looking at the set she has sitting next to her two updates ago, I just noticed that she has a gray d20 in that set. Could be an art error, could be that Dove has two, won’t know for sure unless Brian confirms one way or another I suppose.
I always game with 2-3 d20s of different colors. They’re handy for those times that you are making multiple attack rolls. You can specify which die gets which bonus, and just throw them all at once. I also have a few other dice that match each of the d20s for damage rolls associated with each attack. So it’s not really surprising that a dedicated gamer like Dove would carry multiple distinct d20s (or even full sets in different colors).
Plus, if all your dice look the same, it’s just boring!
I gotta be honest, I’m so confused by what’s happening in this one and the last.
Right, wrong or indifferent regarding how things went in the Dungeon Run, Sam is doing the right thing. Dove’s a toxic player, and anyone who makes everyone else uncomfortable has to go.
So…the plan to deal with the turd in the punchbowl is to toss it out and hope for the best? And we’re considering this maximum conflict resolution?
Yipes, what a colossal cop-out.
Sam’s just handed Dove an entire arsenal to be used against him later. I mean, for crying out loud, think about how this plays out: “Everyone at that table hated me, but I pulled some absolute uber-gamer moves, and then they had to bring down the deus ex machina just to shut me down with some behind-the-scenes skullduggery. Then when I go to CALL them on it, the GM goes full red-background crankypants and throws me out. Un. Be. Lievable. I KNEW Dragon’s Den ran a crooked game before, but man, I NEVER thought I’d see anything like THAT.”
And what’s Sam going to do in response? “Philip Dove is a colossal prat anyway and I’m glad I threw his insulting ass out of my shop”? That’s not a defense, that’s the whining of children.
From any reasonable narrative sense, Sam has just slit his own throat. And as soon as Philip Dove stops fearing for his life–which is exactly what panel two looks like–he’ll see that, and he’ll USE that. If he doesn’t, then that defies EVERYTHING this character has been established as previously.
“Philip Dove was belittling and harassing a player who beat him fairly at a game in which they both used daring and ingenious methods. He added to the pattern of how badly he acted, it was enough to merit a ban.”
That’s not whining, that’s an assertion. Saying someone’s a jerk to your customers/players and you banned them from their shop is…well…often good business. People who work in settings where that takes more work (i.e. public libraries, etc.) often wish they could do that with some people without mountains of paperwork. But even libraries ban patrons who continually harass others/steal/break rules.
Anyone who’s ever met Philip Dove will either a) know what kind of guy he is or b) be as awful as him and the Den doesn’t really want those either.
Additionally–that’s a potential drama point for the future. I doubt this is the last we’ll see of Dove.
Very true. But your response sounds perfectly rational to someone who was in the room. If he gets first-mover advantage, it sounds like whining.
To whom? To the readers? We know exactly what went down. To the wider gaming community within the webcomic? Dove’s going to pour his bile into any earhole that will listen regardless of what Sam did/does at this point.
Sam was right not to engage with Dove. There is no logical arguing with someone like Dove, they will invent whatever ego-gratifying bullshit they want to believe.
Dove broke two rules: firstly Sam’s previous injunction to him (and Dallas); and secondly to accuse the GM of cheating and collusion. Either one earns disqualification (if you don’t trust the GM at a competitive event, don’t sit down at the table in the first place).
Sam did the right thing for such a player: don’t engage, draw a line, enforce it, don’t get drawn down onto their level. And if Dove bellyaches on a public forum, stick up a notice on the notice board of the Dragon’s Den, saying that regretfully, Philip Dove is banned for repeated violations of injunctions against unacceptable behaviour at the game table. (And if anyone asks, he’s also a sexist whiner who couldn’t take coming second to a girl.)
That should be: if anyone asks, then privately “Oh man, he’s such a sexist whiner who just couldn’t take coming second to a girl. And I refuse to comment on any allegations that he used biased dice.”
Really? If I kick a patron out of a library because he was going around bothering women who were trying to read and they complained and he got this “first mover” advantage, I’d sound like a whiner for saying: “no, he was kicked out because he’d been warned and he continued to break the rules”? I don’t buy your definition of whining. Giving an explanation for something that involves “he behaved badly” isn’t whining. That’s boundaries/following rules/following guidelines.
I’m compelled to agree. Sam didn’t effectively refute anything Dove said. Just threw him out. He responded to logic with violence, which many will see as ceding that his opponent was right.
This victory is heavily tainted, and it will become a dark cloud of controversy that could destroy the store.
Dove won. God damn it.
I heard once that drama is a conflict between the actions of the characters and the desire of the audience. I wanted to see Sam handle this better. I’m not sure what that would have been.
NO.
Step back. Sam doesn’t have to best him in a battle of words. This isn’t a contest between equals. This is a CUSTOMER, who has broken rule after rule, smarting off to the MAN IN CHARGE. Logic and refutation are IRRELEVANT.
I run a business. If a customer makes another customer cry, he’s out, permanently. That is an unspeakable thing to do. Further, it is in violation of an agreement, which Dove signed, which undoubtedly has a “if I’m an asshole, I’m out” clause.
This isn’t an argument during a gaming session at your house. This is someone being a monster, in public, in a place of business. He deserves to be out, and Sam is doing the right thing in making it happen.
Sometimes you have to excise the cancer. We’ve booted more than one person from our store for repeatedly creating a hostile environment over the years as well.
You can be a bastard at the table, but you can’t be a dick.
Dove is being a dick.
And sometimes it’s better to “invite people to game elsewhere” for the good of the community. Dove is going to bitch and moan no matter what happens to whomever will listen. Wouldn’t matter if he got kicked out of the store or not—Dove is going to use this incident as sympathy fuel for years to come. Easier for Dove to redirect blame and make insinuations onto somebody else rather than accept the fact that he behaved badly.
Happens far too often.
Did he? Did he throw him out because of the way he played? He banned him because he already warned him that if he were to insult another player so viciously again, he would be escorted out and banned. And what does Dove do? Viciously attack again. Sam didn’t resort to violence, though his wording and expression says he really wanted to; he tossed the dice, and told him to get out. He didn’t have to refute any of the points, because in the situation, the points wouldn’t matter, because Dove’s being banned for a whole different reason. By all means, Sam wins.
Absolutely agree. And did Dove win? Because he used a highly unusual and creative move–and kudos to him for thinking of it–to gain an advantage. And then Dallas said “ok, we’re doing this?” so she used a highly unusual and creative move. That’s a creative move answering a creative move.
@Ruth
I believe the claim that “Dove won” was referring to him winning the situation, not the game. By provoking Sam to lose his temper and throw him out without refuting any of his claims, Dove got Sam to prove his point about the biased event. It’s (mostly) untrue, but if the situation were described to outsiders who did not witness the events firsthand, it would be an easy conclusion to agree with (depending on who is doing the telling of course).
In this way, it definitely could be argued that Dove won.
@Blackbird71
Maybe, but I’m thinking this is the closest Sam & co. could get to a win. I think Dove had two plans:
A) Win the game. He proves his superiority, and no one at the Dragon’s Den can do anything about it without them becoming the “bad guy”.
or, B) Provoke a reaction from Sam or one of his friends. Dove is still the victim and can turn the situation to his advantage. This is what he was trying to do in the last comic.
But Sam didn’t take the bait. Dove might still claim to be the wronged party, but Sam can say with complete sincerity that he kicked Dove out of the store because of his behavior, which Sam did warn him about.
It might not be much of a win, but it’s better than the alternatives.
I don’t doubt that’s how Dove is going to try to spin it. He did say in the first round that he wanted to show Sam was biased toward his friends.
However, Sam did warn Dove about his behavior and made it clear that there would be consequences should said behavior continue. Dove chose to ignore that warning, and Sam’s just following through.
And there will almost certainly be fallout from this.
I interpreted Dove’s initial claims to show bias would be by winning and showing how a real “elite” gamer played.
I think from Sam’s earlier warning:
“You will never return and I will file conduct reports with the union and every tournament organizer on the forums. And those old school GMs do not mess around so you’ll be lucky to get in on a pick-up pog tourney at the local flea market when they’re done.”
that’s going to be the only audience that counts, for any attempts by Dove to put a spin on things (outside his own circle of acolytes and inflated ego).
And I’m sure they’re going to turn around and ask Sam for more details, and then make their own judgement, probably coming down on Sam’s side (assuming they’re decent human beings).
And I’m predicting that Dove’s going to use his own little platform and followers to go on a campaign against Sam and the Dragon’s Den. A very loud minority can still cause a lot of trouble.
important point here, “the union” (or at least what we have seen of it) seems like it would listen FAR more to an almost member than to anyone like Dove(who I am 99% sure is not involved with the union), even with a group to back him up.
“Everyone at that table hated me, but I pulled some absolute uber-gamer moves, and then they had to bring down the deus ex machina just to shut me down with some behind-the-scenes skullduggery. Then when I go to CALL them on it, the GM goes full red-background crankypants and throws me out. ”
Honestly? If I ever heard someone say trot out a line like that I would right away assume that the speaker had behaved like a colossal jerk and been booted for it, and on a deluded ego-trip about it.
Here’s a code: if someone says everyone hated them because they were so awesome, they’ve usually got it half right and half dead wrong.
Word. Corollary: anyone who proclaims that some people can’t handle them probably isn’t worth handling.
“He made sexist comments to 2 of the players, accused the game of being rigged when he lost, gave EVERYONE in the shop an attitude, and ignored multiple warnings about his behavior. You know what? Have him in your group for a session. I don’t even have to explain myself. You’ll see it.”
I’ve had one of these players. That’s the response. And it works. Thing is, Dove is the sort of person to talk around in circles to explain to *himself* why he’s right. You can’t argue that, he’ll just keep running around verbally finding ways to paint himself the hero. Interacting with that AT ALL is just giving him more words to use as ammo later. The only way to deal with a person like this is ostracism.
He doesn’t exactly seem well liked in the community, seeing as how literally everyone at the table wanted him to step on a lego. I can’t imagine his whining is going to carry very far. Sam, on the other hand, is associated with a gaming store, and the massive gamer networks therein.
No, I’m pretty sure you’ve got this backward. Dove calling him out just gave Sam all of the ammo he needed, and he’s got quite a few witnesses to prove it.
I hate players like dove, and I think you have the right idea, and being banned from the store will help make him feel ostracized because casual gamers looking for new members will look at the gaming shop, after alienating all of the people he usually games with he will have difficulty finding other games to join.
Dove literally cannot win now, and that is very good.
I’m inclined to agree (not to mention that it’s bad for business to ban customers permanently, especially big buyers). It’s irrelevant that Dove may be wrong, Steve’s scenario is how Dove will play it – it’s what I’d do. Furthermore, he doesn’t have to convince everyone or even a majority, just enough of the people in his own crowd.
That is not a win for Dove. He probably would have preferred to win the tournament and then gloat about it. This is just damage control.
Three panels. Eight words (not including the sound effect). Two different feeling about it.
Love the fact that Sam not only stood up to Dove, especially after past transgressions (Dove’s over-aggressive cousin beating him up at the signing, the upstaging at the restaurant on Sam’s date with Amy). It wasn’t driven by revenge, but because Dove stepped over a line without remorse for his actions: the DM’s rulings have to be respected regardless of personal opinion. The fiery background in the last panel along with the lines in Sam’s face clearly showed that he was pissed to the highest of pisstivity! Great work, Brian!
On the other hand, now I have to wait until MONDAY to see more? AAAAAAAAUGH!
*tosses table over*
*catches thrown table and shatters it with bare hands*
“I feel ya bro”
*takes table pieces, puts them in coffee grinder, and brews a pot of frustration and sorrow*
Want a cup?
I maybe reading something out of nothing here, but based on Dove’s reaction in panel two it got me thinking that despite everything that Dove has done that he thinks Sam will respect his skills. I maybe waaaay off base but I can somehow see Dove’s twisted mind working that way.
Brian: awesome job of getting everyone so riled up about Dove, and so passionate about what’s the right way to deal with someone like him!
Thanks! It is awesome to know I am hitting things the way I want to with this arc and the characters involved.
Even if a few folks are trying to make me feel bad about it, I’m okay with it. I’m telling stories the way I want to and that is getting people invested. That feels amazing.
the people who are giving you a hard time probably don’t understand that have a strong villain helps the heroes become stronger, either that or they game/act like Dove and are insulted by how you have portrayed him.
As a writer I have to give you a ton of credit for doing such a good job of making us hate Dove while making sure your heroes aren’t “spotless white knights”.
This is exactly what I hoped for.
“You know the best part? I wanted it to happen…. and then it *did*!”
All hail Sam.
Another long time lurker stepping out of the shadows here.
I’ve been enjoying reading the discussion over the last few comics about the conduct of the Dove/Dallas/Sam triangle but I think there’s another angle we might be over looking.
Dove maybe the final GMing test. The union might have asked him to go play at the tourney, be an obnoxious ass even gave him some loaded dice to use. Having done that, now he sits back and watches the toxic brew he’s helped stir up bubble and froth.
Maybe Sam tossing his dice tray and throwing him out is passing the test.
If he’s the test, I don’t think he knows it. Dove’s comments and actions show considerable disdain for Sam’s group of friends (and he’s shown disdain for Sam himself in the past).
I’m seriously stoked for this campaign setting! I’m especially curious to see how the system neutrality part is going to work out.
Wooo, Karthun! I’ll back it right after I get the rest of the rewards from the first d20monkey kickstarter!
Yep. I totally boned myself on the first one but it is nearly finished and the final stretch goal items are going out soon. It is all lessons I learned the hard way. Now I have the good sense to work with other talented people, not over-commit, and set a realistic deadline to deliver on time or early and that is even assuming the projects funds.
That’s all I can say, really. I apologized for the delays, learned from my mistakes, worked through it all, and I keep working to be better from the experience.
Oh, and I don’t think I saw it come up in the comments, but it’s an interesting choice for Sam’s words.
“Get the fuck out of my store,” he exclaims. (Emphasis mine.)
He’s starting to conceive of himself as a far more integral part of the Dragon’s Den, methinks.
Could this apocalyptic rage sam is feeling be enough to regain the power of the narrative that would be sweet
on the subject of karthun…if I had money, I’d be throwing my wallet at you right now.
We should remember that, while it may seem that Dove humiliated everybody with his tirade, he actually has no point.
He didn’t give a beatdown.
He just whined a lot.
Twisting events and decisions to cast others in a bad light in an over-defensive way (and not actually disproving possible cheating accusations) was something, but having to cram personal attacks in not related to the event just proved that he had no actual point or any sort of moral high ground.
Yes, he will try to twist the events further to his advantage and try to badmouth Sam, Dallas, and the entire store. But the thing is:
People like him always find a way to become the victim and try to bring others down, no matter how you answer to them, always twisting events and interpreting any reaction as further proof of their point.
Sam could’ve give him a long discourse disproving any points Dove may have. Sam could just expel the f***er from the store. Sam could jump the table and give the guy such a beating that the mother of the dead would send the Chain Lord again just to hold him back.
People like Dove could use any of this responses as ”proof” that they were the real winner, and there would always be people to believe that.
But it doesn’t really matter. What really matters is that decent people who were there to see what happen would know that Sam tried to be as fair as he could, that the so called oppressive opposition against Dove actually tried to work fair with him for once (until an unnecessary betrayal of his part that only worked because of a convenient 20), that he still lost and was banned for his own douche-baggery in not knowing how to lose.
What is important is that he’s banned in that store again, and may be banned from any competition on the area (which may be a blow against his ego bigger than any punch Sam could landed). He may try to ruin the Dragon’s Den/Sam/Dallas reputation, even gaining a following of syncophants. But that doesn’t matter.
People will find a way to spill vitriol and ruin others lives, but doesn’t matter as long decent continue with their lives. Sam will continue working the store, trying to do better events and being a better GM (even publishing his own games) and Dallas may be having a bad time now she can always fix her career and actually do better.
Yes, Dove managed to hurt a feel feelings, but there’s few things easier than hurting people, but those things heal with time. After a while you just look back and notice that those hurting words don’t mean nothing, and may even make you laugh, specially if worked to be a better person than you were.
Dove didn’t win anything, hes a sore loser that will continue being sore and pathetic.
He doesn’t actually matter.
…I started with an argument and ended in a self-help book. Sorry for that.
No it was good to read. Good mental process to follow.
Just a quick tip from one designer to another. It might be best to have the key setting stuff be neutral but then have mechanics designed for one of the big games out there. Pathfinder is a good one since it has a large following and easily compatible with 3.5 so a lot of the mechanics can be shared. Roll & Keep from the Legend of the Five Rings is another good one as are the AGE and Chronicle Systems from Green Ronin. Think of what Kobold Press done with Midgard.
System neutral isn’t bad but having a book of nothing but fluff tends not to go well unless it is free.
Not good enough. SMASH HIS DICE! SMASH HIS DICE!
This guy walks in, trash talks everyone, basicly calls the DM a cheater by infering that if HE doesn’t win it’s because the game is rigged.
And he expects people to respect him? In what alternate universe?
This guy gets it.
I’ve been an old school Dungeon Master in this very situation. An hour after I threw the guy out he couldn’t get into a game in the state. This was because I made a call to other DMs which ended in him being banned from any game from the legit DMs. Dove is in serious trouble in this one, you can bet on it.
Dat hostility tho…
OP.
I’m glad Brett wasn’t in attendance. He’d be singing the cell block tanto by now.
Tango Tango you wonderful phone
I can’t blame Sam’s anger, but I wished he’d handled himself better throughout this whole fiasco. The way he’s done it has left Phillip plenty of wiggle-room to squirm his way out in defending his (despicable) actions and his (twisted) view of what happened here today.
1) Sam ran roughshod over Phillip’s “point of order” request. As tired as we all are with Mr. Dove’s shit, Sam most of all, as DM, Sam needs to maintain that neutrality he espoused earlier and (very) briefly entertain Phillip’s request for clarification.
2) Sam did not formally investigate Phillip’s (indubitably) illegal dice. Doing so would most likely have revealed Phillip as a fraud and further undermine Phillip’s credibility…
3) Instead of violence (throwing the dice box) or words that betray a lack of self control (fuck), Sam could have cited the previous mutual understanding they had about an appropriate code of conduct and given Phillip a polite invitation to vacate the premises (which, of course, could be followed with coarser language, calls to police, etc. if not obliged)
I wish Sam could have handled the situation in a way that made it more readily apparent that he was more reasonable and mature than Phillip was being as well as thoroughly mitigate any accusations of favoritism.
“Defending himself” to whom? The sycophantic toadies who are already on his side? Most people can tell a slimy little git like him for what they are, and aren’t interested in what they have to say. So he can preach to the choir of his nasty little anti-dragon’s-den hatedom? Whoop-de-fucking-doo.