Dungeon Run: Allegations
Chapter: Comics, Season Five
This one is a little talky by necessity, everyone. Sorry.
Ugh, Dove.
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This one is a little talky by necessity, everyone. Sorry.
Ugh, Dove.
Comments are closed.
Hover-Text: I need to take several showers after posting this one.
I would imagine. Shower well, Brian! And don’t forget the brillo pad and bleach to rid yourself of the Dove-taint.
I hope that after Dove has done this little rant, that either the DM or the Shop owner rolls the dice of Dove’s and discovers they are in fact loaded dice.
I find it funny as can be that Dove has the audacity to claim “Secret notes” and “divine intervention”. Since when are notes from player to DM frowned upon in a competition? I’d expect notes to have been passed back and forth constantly in a dungeon run when it’s PvP.
If I was the DM and something like this happened, it doesn’t matter what the player has to say, to personally attack another player outside of the game in a verbal and/ or emotional means, is an automatic 86 from the game, and I’d be letting fellow DM’s in the area know as a forwarning about this player.
He is only saying that to make Dallas feel that she did not really win the tournament and to draw attention away from him. He is not willing to work with others and then claims fraud when he does not win, even when he is the one trying to pull something.
I have been in games where
1. Players had been able to give the DM notes or pull them aside to tell them something
2. The DM does not have to show the rolls. Remember the DM screens, where they hide their notes and the rolls.
It looks like Dove has two sets of dice, one loaded and the other unloaded. The gray set is probably unloaded. I think the Store Owner should step in and check all of his sets of dice. Loaded dice should mean that Dove would never be able to join any tournament.
The headline in the last panel looks like Dove wrote it since it mentions only ask ‘men’ at a local game store about how a ‘girl’ infiltrated the gaming industry.
Dove doesn’t have two sets of dice – one of his d20s got switched with one of Dallas’s. Check the last comic – the dice by Dallas’s elbow are grey, but the one she’s rolling is blue. Most of Dove’s dice are blue, but one is grey.
But yeah, Dove’s accusations are completely baseless.
And while I don’t think that last panel is accurate, it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s some truth behind it.
This is complete bullshit, and if the GM was playing favorites Dove would have been out in the first round. That being said if it was my shop or may game Dove would have already have been booted as toxic, also for violations of the the rules for getting the three little henchmen he had in round 1. PVP means no out of character bribing.
I’d not be at all surprised to learn Sam has a webcam recording his die rolls behind the screen that can be reviewed if there is a customer complaint. After all, this is a tournament and there would inevitably be someone with sour grapes over not winning. The players need not see what was rolled, but if there is a complaint, there is verification.
Be amusing to see Dove’s face if Sam pulled that.
Mind you, I truly hope Dove was not cheating and I don’t like the fact that Dallas was given the win. But on the other hand, I wouldn’t allow a Diplomacy roll once combat had begun. T should have fried Dove’s character next while laughing at him.
And you kbow. Dove doesn’t even have to have had loaded dice. Was anyone confirming people’s rolls? He could very well have just been calling off what he wanted. It’s risky, but if everyone is going on honor, the. He xoxo get away with it, and em raise a huge stink if anyone tries to confirm by saying that the game is biased because nobody else’s dice need a babysitter.
It’s even more fun when you game online. Considering the die-roller on roll20 has a tendency to roll several 1s in a row (I believe in fudging rolls and have had people reroll only to see another 1 show up… and then a third… and this happens multiple times), my internet gamers will often roll regular dice and tell me the results.
Sometimes the dice seem to be hot. But you know something? Sometimes MY dice are hot… both for NPCs and for monsters. The game’s supposed to be fun, so no reason to sweat it.
Dove Is the absolute worst im lucky that ive never gamed with a guy like that thing
Unfortunately I have……
Same here. Douches like that kill the fun for everyone else, and should be put on a rocket to the Sun.
Generally if it’s in tournament I just publicly castrate their character with a sword of wounding and let them bleed out……
I have as well. usually, the fate of the player was left to the group as a whole. Majority rules.
I had experince with three guys fighting over rules and whipping out books that no one else in the game had. They say that handbooks says that, but this handbook says this.
It got so bad that, it killed a game before it even started!
I had a player online use a couple books I explicitly stated I did not own and couldn’t reference on the fly. I had added a requirement that they find a off copy somewhere I could check it and to give the page number for the thing they were using.
They didn’t do any of these and then said “I was being unfair” because when I finally hunted down the book and found the rules they ignored, I forced them to recreate the character properly. Which “destroyed” their build. Where they were somehow summoning level 17 outsiders with Summon Monster I
This made me remember one of the MANY problems I had with Dove’s playing style. He got a natural 20 and just said “Oh huzzah, a natural 20.” I don’t think I’d ever want to game with someone who didn’t get at least a little excited on a nat 20. It would seem that most of the joy of the game isn’t there. Seriously guys, is there anyone here who doesn’t give a little cheer or do a small dance in their chair when that 20 shows up?
I had one at my table once. I don’t think I’ve ever enforced Rule Zero anywhere near as hard as I did that night.
Agreed!
How much for a full color commission of Dove on fire?
I’d chip in, only if it is canon.
Fire is too good for him. Something involving chihuahuas and steak sauce. Maybe we can borrow Randy Milholland’s Redneck Tree for a bit..
Chihuahua hellhounds are the only acceptable compromise.
I’m thinking more of recreating Edgar Allan Poe’s The Pit And The Pendulum. Only with a very rusty, dull and jagged pendulum. And more rats.
Only if he can get Mike too, so Mike can say something like “damn dude, they hate you more than I’ve ever been hated. Here is your bed buddy for the night.”
Only because Mike routinely got the crap beaten out of him. In this situation, it sort of feels like Dove’s going to get no sort of retribution for this, if they can’t prove he’s cheating, or if he’s not.
The girls aren’t here to magically not get in trouble for beating the snot out of him.
HI! I’m from the future!..Good news/bad news 😀
Gosh, he’s quick to cast aspersions on other people and imply things himself. Pre-emptive strike much?
Those that have nothing to say but don’t want to loose usually go over to personal attacks. That way they distract from the weakness of thier point.
But if you know that you can turn it against them:
Don’t react to the attack. Just hit them with every repercussions you have in your arsenal:
In a forum, flag thier posts because of personal attacks. They will stop going that way or they will get kicked out.
He can at least give him a bad review as “terrible looser” on whatever platform GM’s use. Acusing the GM and other players is not proper maner for a RP.
And most importanlty: Don’t be distracted from what they try to distract you from!
They should check his dice. Chances are he is just distracting from them using personal attacks to not have them checked.
Actually for me that makes him sound a lot more likely to have weighted dice. Nobody verbally attacks like that if he does not have something to hide.
Interesting. I have to wonder how he is sure his dice would pass tests. I do admit I like how Dove has just leveled up in the Antagonist table.
Well, the easiest way would be for them to be real. But the second is he’s making a bluff check.
Sadly as I predicted the lack of witnesses is being used by Dove against Sam and Dallas. Dove is the lowest form of human creature, a very competent and clever individual who has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. By they way I unfortunately have had to litigate against (and in a couple of places play games against )things such as him. Dove is running a very cool bluff. First as several people have stated non loaded dice are the best way to cheat (shaved and slightly mis-shaped dice are just as good in the hands of a competent cheat). It would be very costly to run the types of conclusive tests to prove Dove is a cheat. the worst part of this is that Dove does study his opponents and is utterly ruthless. To run confidence tricks against a young girl shows how utterly worthless and totally irredeamable he is [side note please never have him do a single good or even vaguely human thing in this strip].
Hopefully they will his next comment that everyone should forget this unfortunate incident out of the kindness of his heart and go to war. Ruin him, expose him use evry dirty trick in the book to make his life a page from Dante’s inferno. {By the way anyone know which level of hell is reserved for cheats?}
Actually it’s not that expensive to have them tested if you live in a gambling town like I do you can ask right to a casino and they can test it for you or go to the gamblers store here and they should be able to do it for a few dollars…..
Was just thinking that below in my post. Many people in the last strip commented on various, non-expensive ways you can check dice. Don’t even need a machine to do it!
If it WAS a weighted die, someone said spin it or drop it in a glass of water. Does no harm to the dice.
If it’s a shaved or chipped dice, have someone with a keen eye check it and compare to a normal one.
But, I have a strong suspicion that he brought him good dice with him, knowing that, in the past, they have rolled well for him. As someone stated already, he is a sore loser. A very BAD, sore loser. And I have a feeling he would have been a bad winner, as well.
I’ve actually played with people like him as well that I had to walk away from because I would have made them part of the table as people that know me I could….. I even came across a bad group and wound up killing the entire party before packing up my stuff and never looking back…..
“But, I have a strong suspicion that he brought him good dice with him, knowing that, in the past, they have rolled well for him.”
Nope, sorry. There’s no such thing as ‘lucky’ dice. If he has some that roll a certain way, a way that can be demonstrated statistically, then there is a physical, discoverable cause for the effect. Look up “Gambler’s Fallacy.”
Whether the die (or dice) were made, purchased, or found–that’s an interesting question.
I knew I liked you for a reason Evil Bastich.
You are correct on 6s. However, I wanted to check a wooden 20 in vegas and they were some loss as how to do it accurately. I was thinking on the industry quality tests you can have done on Polys
Well they use a special micrometer on a spindle mount which gives it .005 variance with any die except in D4s so they either didn’t want to do it or the casino had a policy not to handle outside dice…..
Oh thats tragic. It seems like quite an interesting setting actually, I wouldnt mind playing it myself.
But he left his die on the table just in case she would use it so he could walk away without a smudge.
Anyhoo, so this leads to a potentially very interesting arc, will they seek vengence? I would, I would vengence him so hard, make sure he couldnt find a group to play with anywhere. But then of course there wouldnt be much of an antagonist anymore unless you came up with someone even worse than dove.
For someone like Dove, the best vengeance is simply to ignore and exclude. He’s one if those that thrive on attention. And he seems to prefer negative attention because it justifies his total asshole resopnses. Just ban him for any of the mountain of reasons he gave, and be done with him. If he doesn’t have an audience he’s harmless.
I live in a town where dice is tested regularly by the state gaming commission and they test them on a machine…. He’s just trying to misdirect the matter and disgrace the player and GM because of association…..
He is certainly guilty of misdirection. He should have known that with this essentially being a PvP tournament, anyone playing a stealthy character WILL use ninja notes so that other players in ear shot don’t know what they’re doing!
Trevor (a rogue variant) using a note to search for traps? I would completely expect that.
Dallas (a ranger type, also stealthy) using a note to explain WHY she’s praying to Dove can’t plan a counter-move? Yes, I can see that too.
And no one EVER wants someone like Dove pointing out a failure in your life (heck, I keep thinking about MINOR things I did wrong while in college and I feel bad about them having happened!), because they will chew on that bone like a hungry dog until there’s nothing left.
Note passing has been part of the game for decades( now most of them use text messaging except for me since I don’t allow text messaging or electronic pads at the table) I also allow passing notes to one another if they don’t wan’t someone in the group to know what was going on( which Dallas should have done so that Dove didn’t know that she was gunning for him)….
Ouch, I wouldn’t be able to game with you then. I keep all of my notes and character information on my tablet, as well as a big stack of books and spell sheets. I get no texting, but why no tablets? They really make gaming 100X easier.
The reason no tablets is I have caught people trying to fudge their character in game and even hack onto my wifi to see what’s in my campaign before I present the scenario….
Also trying to pull that point of order crap around me results in character penalties like you wouldn’t believe……
Regardless of dice (and that it doesn’t really seem all that costly and hard to prove if he WAS using weighted or “special” dice), Dove is the lowest of the low here.
Just to justify himself, he needs to verbally attack someone who was more than likely trying to pick up the pieces of her career from what happened. He has to open a metaphorical wound that she’s probably been trying to close and throw in all the salt he can.
Oh… if only Brett were here. I hope Brett’s watching and taking notes so that Dove gets coal upon coal for Christmas (or maybe even a “lovely” visit from Krampus as a favor for saving him from Klaus).
I’ve never wished ill upon someone like that…Dove, you a-hole…
Brett is Santa. What makes you think he isn’t? 🙂
*slow nod*
Coal nothing. I hope Brett personally chauffeurs the Krampus to Dove’s door.
If Dallas is still under 18, she would still fall under Santa’s protection, there would be no need for Brett to rely on Krampus, when he can kick Dove’s ass around to the North pole and back, himself.
Oh I know. But the Krampus is just vicious. But you’re right. Brett would want to handle that personally.
No Brett would kick his arse then sic. Krampus on him. Double Dragons Style.
Yes he would and hope it happens.
Hm. Gotta say, even if I don’t agree that Dove shoulda known what was in that note (his character had no way to know what was being prayed about, so does Dove himself need to know the subject of prayer?)…
I do think it woulda saved trouble, to just show it to him–Even if he would be willing to cross the line and have his character act upon knowledge the character had no way to know…what’s to be done, that could forestall the 36 points to hit? He’d already cast his lot in with Tyraxion, so it’s not as if the Chain Lord was about to hold back, right?
He’s also complaining about the setting in general, claiming that Sam came up with it to let her win.
Not defending him in even the slightest sense, just adding that he has more b******t complaints.
God damn it, Dove.
Dallas didn’t imply he was cheating, she just said she used his die by mistake (admittedly, webcomics are not great at displaying minute facial expressions and tone which could have been used to imply cheating). He inferred the allegation and then proceeded to direct personal attacks to another player and the GM to cover not only the fact that he did possibly cheat, but his own insecurities that he’s not as great as he thinks he is (conjecture based on his repeated horn blowing of being an “elite gamer”).
Whether he cheated or not remains to be seen, but everything else he said warrants four words: “Store Ban for Life.”
Perhaps he was saying it because he was afraid he had been caught.
I had a feeling this was going to happen. If anything, Dove planned for this. If he was caught cheating, he could just claim that everyone was conspiring against him and play the helpless victim.
I’ve played enough AD&D, MtG, YuGiOh, and HeroClix over 20 years to have met a few people like him that resort to cheating and then play the victim when caught.
Especially over this arc I have come to hate Dove and all his min/maxing power-gamer douche-tastic sliminess with a fiery passion usually reserved pedophiles and rapists…but I notice no one has really commented on the “fine” print about Dallas’ career. We have here what is still likely a major issue in the gaming community at large, “…we spoke with men at a local game store about how this girl infiltrated the gaming industry to seemingly bring it down from the inside.” Since when do women “bring down” the gaming industry? Or anything regarding fantasy, sci-fi, or gaming in general? On top of horrible gamers that you can’t help but want to kick from your table this is prime material for at least a mini-arc. In my limited experience men have done more damage to my desire to play than women, I’ve only once encountered a female gamer I would rather not run a game for.
I rage against the chauvinistic misogyny that seems inherent to the geek circles of gaming, both electronic and tabletop, and comics, and fantasy and sci-fi literature. There should not be a second, more restrictive standard for a woman to be “geeky” than men as often seems the case. Let’s be honest, the simple fact that women showed up to take part in this damned sausage-fest should be honor enough, right? They could have chosen any hobby to get interested in and they picked ours. Ours, the world of chain-mail bikinis and three-breasted whores from Mars, where everything we project about women is pretty much designed to titillate us men.
I think I’m rambling and losing my point, I’m not terribly organized about these things 🙁 Anyway, there should be some kind of backlash I feel from Dallas’ friends about this issue. Unless her writing style did in fact change over-night in this universe then Dead-Iron isn’t any less full of substance than anything else she produced. The only thing lacking in substance AND style is the mind-set of the “men” interviewed at the game store.
Personally, I doubt that anything other than the headline in the last panel really happened. Maybe the book was a flop, but Dallas being a girl couldn’t have influenced it that much – maybe a few fans didn’t buy it because they’re misogynist assholes like Dove, but I doubt they make up a large enough portion of Dallas’s fanbase to have any real impact.
I think the text of the “article” is more about Dallas’s own insecurities. She had to create an alternate persona to be successful in the industry, so she has to wonder whether her success is based on her own abilities or on “Dallas Noble” being a man. And Dove is being a douche for preying on that insecurity.
Based on the imposter part, I think the thrust is thst Dallas isn’t the real mysterious writer and thst a copycat has shown up claiming the name. That has Dove written all over it. Also note it didn’t say where this article was printed. This very well may be Dove’s own personal blog.
As much as I hate to say it but I do feel somewhat similar to Dove does. It does really feel like Sam fucked him over royally. It definitely does not feel partial at all. At least when Doves character turned to Tyraxion it seemed like he was still going to have to kill Dallas’ ranger on his own. Yet when she prayed the Lord came and just fucked up Doves character. Now if The Lord of Chains and Tyraxion began to fight leaving the two actual PC’s to battle it out then that would have not only been amazing but fair as well.
Now I am saying this as someone that is hoping that physical harm happens to Dove and have wished it upon him since he was first introduced way back when, however when it comes to gaming (specially when friends are involved) you have to be partial. I am not saying Sam fucked over Dove on purpose but it really does feel like he let his own personal feelings cloud his judgement. But hey what do I know?
It was pretty brutal, how the chain lord took doves character out, but one must wonder what would have happened had he not tried to parlay with the unparlayable (like, get out of the way of the undead super-golem) and played it from there. I think in an earlier post I mentioned how his pulling the exact same line out about “humbly offering up his services, yadda yadda yadda” from his Tyrax gambit to use on the CL, which in my interpretation of things would be some sort of very real action he’s consciously making his character take (unlike characters/players discussing general strategy in an encounter, because) Had he not gone for the bluff, or switching sides (again) or whatever you want to call it, he may have had a chance to take an action other than “Talk at moving brick-wall” Had he done anything else, we might have gotten the CL/Tyrax & Dove/Dallas fights everyone was expecting. But alas, he tried to reason with a super-zombie.
Ah sadly you missed the point and the spirit of true table top gaming….
In true gaming the GM has no friends while in play and what he says or does is law….. What I saw was a player using her ingenuity to call upon someone to let them know where someone know where someone they was looking for is and the roll was just to see if that person was listening while another player was whining because he thought his shit didn’t stink was privileged to know what was going on….
So are you telling me you would whine and snivel because someone passed a note that could lead to your demise? that would show me what kind of character that gamer has……
What I was saying is that given the fact that Sam was running it and not only were some of his friends in the game but also someone he had beef with. With it being a public game and one that was a competition he has to try harder or be more apparent with his fairness in order to avoid situations like this. Is Dove a complete piece of shit? Yes, 100%. However he can still potentially cast doubt on the game if it seems like the DM was favouring one person over another even if the DM wasn’t.
Sam had Dove roll in order to sweet talk Tyraxion. That roll was out in the open for everyone to see. When Dallas passed the note (which I personally am cool with) he should have had her make a roll out in the open as well OR done the rolls himself in the open that way everyone could see that there was no fudging at all or even the chance of it. If he wanted to roll behind the screen that’s cool too but the roll should not have resulted in Dove’s character getting thumped. If he would have either used a public roll or had the two players duke it out while the two monsters battled then this whole argument would be avoided.
Now people can say that the Lor of Chains did get to roll to hit Dove so there was some chance to the whole thing but you really can’t say that. Assuming that the attack roll was a 19 then the lord had at least a +17 modifier which given the fact that a) Dove was probably much lower level than it and b) his character is a caster, means that the Lord of Chains probably needed a 2 or better to hit. Not really fair when you know that that there is only a 5% that the attack won’t instantly kill them.
So really at the end of the day I can understand how Dove could feel like Sam boned him on it. Does that mean I like Dove or agree with how he handled it? No, not one bit. However given the circumstances I could see how I would wonder if it were true if I was a spectator at the game given how things were handled. When you are holding an event like that at a gaming store or a convention you really want to leave little for the haters to use because word travels around and people believe stuff regardless of whether or not it is true so it can end up hurting you.
Sorry to post so much.
Secret GM Rolls are an entire part of the game. When Dove was schmoozing Tyraxion, that was a skill check that Dove was making, not Tyraxion trying to resist Dove’s attempt, therefore Dove had to roll his own check.
What was likely happening was that Sam rolled to see if The Mother would heed her prayer, Dallas wasn’t using any kind of skill, just praying, this would have been a roll made in secret at any table you could possibly play at. The result of the roll determines the effect (In this case, whether or not The Mother heeds Dallas’ prayer), and the actual numbers aren’t that big of a deal unless Dove wants to contest that Sam’s been fudging rolls.
See I find that with people you don’t game with on the regular if you roll out in the open either completely or on certain rolls it builds their trust up and helps to cast out any doubt or the like. I used to DM at the local gaming store every weekend (or close to) doing one shots for people then when 3rd edition came out I started running the RPGA quest games. When I first started doing it I would roll behind the screen and all that and I always noticed that some people would always bitch or bemoan stuff so I started rolling out in the open and found that 95% of the bitching went away. Not just because they could see the rolls but also because it showed them that I was making the effort to come across as impartial. So if I was having a cold night for rolling people could see it just as they could when I was on fire. It’s little things like that that gets people to have trust in you even if they have only gamed with you once or twice. Then once you get the rep of being that GM that is fair and also fun to game with then you can slowly go back to rolling behind the screen knowing that if there is any bitching it is the haters and the rest of the community knows they are full of shit as they have the proof over x number of sessions saying otherwise.
Now I am not saying Sam did fuck Dove over, just saying how I can see it coming across that way. With that said if Dove could get hit by a bus in the next comic or two I would really appreciate that 😀
Except, you’re missing the part where Dove was speaking. Aloud. To a dragon. That was fairly far away, based on the perspectives given. He also knew the modifiers he needed. So yes, a public roll makes sense. And if Sam had been partial about this as you say, then he would have double-checked Dove’s roll on that to make sure it was really a 19.
Dallas didn’t know what abilities or skills to use, and her action was done inside of her head. That is the IDEAL time and place to make a roll for her, just like when characters are in a room, and the GM rolls to see if they notice the hidden door or the treasure chest squared behind the painting as they leave/enter.
Another point is that you’re putting a lot more information in there that we don’t know. We don’t know what Sam rolled for the to-hit. We don’t know Dove’s AC, nor his level. We don’t know the Chain Lord’s modifier. We don’t know if Sam’s to-hit roll was public or not.
What you’re saying about Sam needing to be more transparent (which, uhm, you CAN’T be more transparent in this game without actually being unfair because meta-gamers do exist, like it or not) isn’t fair at all. Any single person who wasn’t Dove could have won and Dove could still call shenanigans because “Sam hates Dove.” It doesn’t get any more or less legitimate just because someone Sam knows won. Sometimes, you just get lucky. Sometimes you get UNlucky. Also, y’know, Sam being partial in this, his girlfriend kind of made it right about to the end, as well as one of his best friends. You don’t think he might have fudged things a bit for them? Maybe said “that 9 is actually enough, much to your surprise” or something? No, Sam has been entirely impartial throughout, and I’m predicting that Sam is going to call Dove out for being a little shit in the next comic, and ban him.
But I don’t believe that Sam was being partial. Yes, he took great joy in the fact that Dove got squished because (as stated above) he tried to convince a super-zombie that he was on its side. I think anyone who would have played with him and hated his personality would have enjoyed that.
But here are some moments where, I believe, Sam was being impartial:
1) When he called out both Dove *and* Dallas for their attitudes and agendas. In the same strip, no less.
2) If Sam had been partial, he would not have even let Dove attempting to win the favor of Tyraxion happen in the first place (which, incidentally, could have ended in Dallas not praying to the Mother and calling down the Chain Lord).
He let all options happen as they were proven to be viable. And, quite possibly, Dove is someone who doesn’t believe in ninja noting. If he runs games, he probably enforces a “no ninja noting” rule.
If anyone else has any other points to bring up about Sam’s impartial/partial-ness, please feel free to.
Regarding Sam’s lack of impartiality, there’s the fact that the Chain Lord really had no motivation to attack Dove’s character – he could have simply gone straight for Tyraxion and ignored the whining gnat. After all, Tyraxion was the target and the possessor of escaped souls to be reclaimed. What interest did the Chain Lord have in Dove? It’s not like Dove was any sort of legitimate obstruction to his mission.
Also, he did allow his girlfriend to annoy another player out of the game without calling her on it.
I’m betting Sam didn’t know that Amy freaked Tamina out enough to leave the tournament.
There is actually a small monster manual that was released on Drive Through RPG that has the Chain Lord in it. If you read that the entry it gives the impression that it will simply kill everything in its way. I am sure Dallas GTFOed from the area when she heard it coming.
Further more the note said she was “ratting THEM out” this includes Dove. The Mother sent the CL to deal with the dragon, another sorcerer that was trying to cheat death is simply an added bonus. Dove was probably given the priority of “If the mortal gets in your way kill him too.”
@Ashley
So he didn’t notice when one player just disappeared from the table?
Readers give the “villains” in this comic a lot of crap, but frankly some of the “heroes” aren’t much better. That was a jerk move by Amy
@Ishmael
Perhaps, but it’s a bit of a stretch. Especially as the mortal in question didn’t get in his way, but rather was offering to help his mission. If he had been told, “oh by the way, apparently there’s a human out there helping the dragon; feel free to smash him too,” then how would he have identified said human? At the time the Chain Lord arrived, Dove was doing nothing to indicate his allegiance to the dragon, and in fact was doing the exact opposite. He was being a slimy worm about it, but he was most definitely not impeding the Chain Lord in any way.
Unless of course you’re implying that the Chain Lord will destroy everything literally in his way, in which case I’d say that the creature was poorly designed. If ever sent for a target in a highly populated area, that will leave quite a bloodbath just to recover a single soul.
What I expected. Of course he would complain about the secret die rolls. As much as I hate Dove, secret die rolls in a PvP game where the DM is friends with some of the players is a big no-no. Everything should be at least retraceable after the effects become known.
Yes Dove, you do make a point, as much as we would like you to, you are probably not cheating, you are undoubtably a great gamer… Unfortunately you are also a giant douch and thoroughly unpleasant individual who for some unknown reason feels the need to insult almost everyone you come into contact with.
Dove is one of those individuals who does possess skill, but makes the mistake of treating others as inferior. Which cause others to hate him and try to bring him down, which he feels justifies his stance, that people are out to get him due to personal issues even though he has skills…. He’s still sorta right, but misses the point that people hate him because he is a pompous asshole who makes people miserable.
Taking a note from the headlines?
Whenever one of my players asks me: ‘what’s lawful evil?’, from now on I’ll simply give them a link to this page.
Am I the only person who really wants to say “Fuck this” and punch so damn hard in the face that his eye socket would be broken? I know it doesn’t sound right, but when dealing with such aholes like him, you can only pick one answer and that answer is “F” for “Fuck your ass up!”
It’d just prove him right.
Personally, I’d just get up and point at the door. “You wanna see a bias? Get the fuck out of my store. There’s your bias.”
It’s a reasonable tactic when you’ve done something wrong: cast suspicion on someone else, then question the authority of the people who would get to judge you.
On the other hand, as much as I can understand why people hate Dove, I feel kind of sorry for him. This is clearly ‘his thing’. It’s the one thing he’s got and clearly the only thing that fills him with any self worth. He has to ‘win’ a game that (tourney play aside, of course) has no winners and to be the best of the bunch. I can see why he’d play so hard, I can understand why he feels he has to dominate the other players at the table. Rather than hating him or being mad at him, I just kind of feel sorry for him.
Wouldn’t have him in my game group, mind. You can’t have fun in a group with someone like him. But it doesn’t stop me feeling bad for him.
Actually if you could think of it and get past the rage you would feel this is an excellent approach. Telling Dove that we feel so sorry for the pitiful lonely little man who had to resort to Cheating a young girl to compete in a local tourney. That would really hit him. However I am a lesser man so I would go to full on disclosure and backballing him from all gaming in the area
I would think the ban-hammer would be my go-to as well, but that just backs up Dove’s argument.
“When I called him on it, they told I wasn’t allowed back again, without showing any proof!”
By the way, in Dallas stead I would have rolled the die a few more times by now.
Surprise, Phillip! We have store cameras!
This is pretty much exactly what I think is likely to happen. Too many people out there who like to take five-finger discounts, and security cameras aren’t that expensive. And I could totally see during a tournament one of the cameras being oriented onto the gaming table – or heck, during all gaming. Certainly cuts down on risk of people walking off with each other’s stuff, and gives an in-store way of resolving more acrimonious gaming disputes. You can argue with the GM but you can’t argue with the camera.
Fuck you Dove. Fuck you.
Second the motion!
motion passed. Next issue on the table?
Accusing the Gm/DM of cheating (without good proof) is disqualification material and combined with the other bad sportmanship shown is enough for ban. Let him play with his regular “elite group” if they’ll put up with him.
Dove is just a typical sore loser.
And I have seen incredible rolls in person – Rolemaster character with 6 stats 95+, including 2 100’s – fairly rolled they used my dice – the last four stats were >87 and used a cup and my dice. All observed.
The suspicious part is that there were no low rolls at all with doves dice.
When I run, the official roles are “high rolls” (hits, saves) but many impromptu ones are “low rolls”. 1’s and 2’s for spotting, roll under a stat for a “memory prompt” or dex for slippery crossings. By using a spread of targets, weighted dice (or more often improper rolling) gets much harder to work.
That’s actually a damn good idea. I’ll be borrowing this.
Oh, random observation on the bit of today’s update that hadn’t been mentioned yet (due to the dove hate) What’s up with that article with the douchey allegations in the last panel? It seems like the sort of thing dove would write if he was trying to dumb down his thoughts (especially with the “imposter” and “how this girl infiltrated gaming” BS)
Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised if he (or someone he paid) wrote that “article” and used lots of convenient “statistics” to support their bashing of Dallas. Unless she really did bomb with dead iron, but that’s still no excuse for the asshattery of the articles contents.
I’m not sure it’s a real (in-comic) article in the first place, for exactly the reasons you mentioned – no serious journal or website would publish something like that.
No, I think it’s something Dallas is imagining because Dove is picking at her own insecurities.
That’s something I only thought of momentarily, but with the full page layout, it made me think more along the lines of some online only “publication”
Though I do like the imagined article idea. Once again, something we’ll know for sure once the next update or two get posted.
Regarding Dead Iron bombing; there was a strip a while back that showed copies of it in the discount section.
I wonder if Sam’s going to feel bad about getting Dallas to come out as the Dead Iron writer, seeing as this is pretty much his fault overall. It was pretty obvious her demographic and unfortuantely the reaction that demographic would have at being “fooled” about who they were getting their material from.
That article writer however needs to interview both genders of gamers, while there’s a smaller amount of females they likely enjoy it as well. So it isn’t for men, or at least men that don’t want to use material from women, so what?
I’d hope that someone of experience, like Sam’s Dad would offer Dallas some useful perspective. Usually, one bad book review doesn’t tank an author. Almost every author out there has put out at least one bad book. Dallas is young enough not to have that perspective. If the book didn’t work, learn from it and make the next one better.
This is, I hope, the set up for Sam to lay the smack down. Perhaps the Narrative hasn’t abandoned him after all.
Larry never really said that Sam *didn’t* have the narrative. He said that Sam could use it if he wanted to (if I remember correctly), just that Larry himself was being pulled away because he took too long in getting Sam through the rest of the trials (due to him enjoying the night life).
Who’s to say this gaming tourney ISN’T the last trial?
I was thinking the same thing. Make Sam th I nk he’s on his own and see if he rises up.
And Dallas’s response to all this should be:
“Actually, I wasn’t alleging anything. I was about to say, before you interrupted, that it’s not proper that I should have used your die, and that I’d like to reroll using my own.”
I of course would be much more vindictive in my rebuttal but it would be the wrong thing to do.
Be the Bard, Dallas! “…I wasn’t suggesting anything. You thought of cheating awfully quickly, though…”
Poor thing obviously isn’t quite as tough as she’s come across in the past, unfortunately.
I’m thinking that by defending himself against perceived accusations of cheating, Dove is skipping some provision of the rules which would allow him to demand Dallas reroll her shot with her own dice.
End result: the roll stands, because at that point, a demand of a reroll would be an admission that his dice are “cheaters”.
The Fourth Circle of Hell is reserved for those guilty of the sin of Greed. Those whose attitude toward material goods deviated from the appropriate mean including the avaricious or miserly (including many “clergymen, and popes and cardinals”), who hoarded possessions, and the prodigal, who squandered them.
Those guilty of Fraud are consigned to the Eighth Circle and those guilt of Treachery the Ninth. The traitors are distinguished from the “merely” fraudulent in that their acts involve betraying a special relationship of some kind.
I think Dove probably fits best into the Eighth Circle, maybe in the ninth Bolgia where a sword-wielding demon hacks at the Sowers of Discord, dividing parts of their bodies as in life they divided others. As they make their rounds the wounds heal, only to have the demon tear apart their bodies again.
Fuck hell. I say we give him to Hades … That guy made everything personal. I could see Dove in a RP game where he could never do anything, where any time some one made a mistake it was “pulling a Dove.” The only time he would succeed is when it would make things worse for the group. Finally every game would end with a vote on who the best player was and Dove would never even be allowed to vote he was so bad.
Well, so much for feeling sorry for Dove after his character was squashed.
I’m looking forward to seeing what happens on Friday…
You know it’s funny, it seems that the only ones to use the word “Elite” on themselves are usually never worthy of the title.
Besides, if he was truly a “Professional”, he’d be easier to get along with as his smack-talking wouldn’t be personal, just part of the competition.
It’s a shame that Rugby ediquite isn’t the norm in more competitions.
The man is gaming’s Dave Hester.
Heh… Philly-boy does look like his little brother, doesn’t he? 🙂
Yuuuuuuuuuup.
And no, I’m not paying for that.
I actually agree with you, phistoroboto: that was literally a Deus ex Machina with secret rolls. That was anticlimactic and douchey on GM’s part. That is no real tournament.
In the games I’ve been in, -every- roll by the GM is secret. That’s how my group does things- even damage rolls by the GM are secret.
But is was a tournament with an actual prize, not a group of friends hanging out and having a good time. In something like that, every roll that matters ought to be above board.
This may not win me any friends, but *if* we assume Dove is not cheating, he has a point. Everyone at that table hated him and were clearly working to make sure he lost. Since Sam is friends with that group, it was incumbent upon him to do everything as above board as possible, and he should have known that.
Plain and simple, once the note was read and cleared and Dallas’ prayer was about to be answered, Sam not only should have, but *had to* tell Dove what Dallas was trying, told *everyone* the DC, and rolled it all out in the open. Sam blew it as GM by not making certain there could be no possible image of chicanery, whether you think Dove is a jerkoff or not. It’s bad business to be suspected of playing favorites as a GM, especially when you are representing your dad business.
Hate that guy all you want – and you should, he’s not someone I would want to game with on anything resembling a regular basis – but he has a point. Sam should have known better than to make the rolls secret for this very reason.
At this point, I wouldn’t game with either Dove or Sam. Dove is an all-round jerk who would be unwelcome in any gaming group I’ve participated in, and Sam has been a pretty poor GM in terms of handling the players and setting aside personal bias.
I think Sam could learn though, in fact I think that’s part of this story-arc. Dove though, no.
That is a fair point, but I don’t remember it being stated in the pre-tourny brief about the GMs being required to roll openly nor of any policy forbidding the passing of notes between participants. Granted, it could have been handwaived or even assumed, but unless one with the complaint can verify what part of the the tourny rules have been violated, they don’t have much of a case.
Basically, if ol’ Phil had issues with the rules, he should have brought them up before the tourney even started. As it is, his complaints about the notes and the secret rolls are moot; he got beat because someone out-played him. Such is Life.
My point is, I believe as a GM, especially in a winner-take-all tournament setting with a prize on the line – regardless of how small – you have need to be as above board as possible, regardless of what is spelled out in the rules, to avoid this very accusation.
I get wanting the villain of the piece to get his comeuppance, but being a douchenozzle does not make Dove actually wrong in what he said. If I was at a table where everyone else knew each other and were friends, and I got the shaft, I’d have my suspicions also.
Sure, but he still needs to state his case as a reasonable person with evidence backing up his complaint. Verbally lashing out at people, one of whom is the judge of the tourney who has already warned both of them about their attitudes once and has yet to make any accusations himself doesn’t help. As meticulous as he is, Dove had to have read and memorized the tournament rules so he would have known what was allowed and what wasn’t. It certainty didn’t concern him earlier when Trevor passed notes to the GM earlier about checking for traps.
Dove made it to the final 2, and cutting a deal with “Boss Monsters” was his idea. Dallas simply retaliated using the same gambit – and why not?
If he feels like he “got the shaft” right at the end, ’twas because he brought it upon himself.
Further, frankly, I don’t see how you could run a PvP game without passing notes between the GM and players or behind-the-screen rolls. If Player A searches for traps, mentally dominates a creature, or (in this case) secretly prays for intervention to a vengeful deity of death regarding an undead dragon, player B isn’t entitled to see the die rolls that resolve those actions as they happen.
(I will agree that such die rolls ought to be verifiable after the fact.)
“OK, so there’s a trap here; roll a search check”
“Right, there’s someone sneaking up on you; roll to spot and I’ll roll hide”
Yeah, that sounds like a great way to play…
Yes, he’s almost certainly cheating. I hope they do test those dice and find out that’s the case, and there’s the best of chances that all that is a bluff designed to throw them off the trail of that cheating.
But man…it takes stones to walk into a hostile environment, even with backup and loaded dice. And Dungeon Run may well have been the most hostile environment Dove had ever seen.
I believe there’s a phrase from the mid-90s that applies here:
SERVED! SERVED! SERVED! SERVED!
So is my browser failing to show the last panel in which Dove gets broadsided by a chair?
You’ve attacked a known, emotionally insecure player at a table of geeks.
You, sir, would be ejected from both of my shops, usually with great force.
And yes, Dove, everyone hates you, and that’s just fine. It’s not like you didn’t know it going in. If you’re an ass, you expect to play uphill in every game. If you aren’t good enough to win regardless, then stop being an ass.
The game is fair, you’re just bad at it.
Actually Dove brought it on himself by getting in the way of a God’s messenger who was doing their job. I would’ve played the Chain Lord in the same way of “kill whoever gets in the way of my duties”.
Bringing personal grievances to a game is also another big fat no. Isn’t the store owner present as well? I’m sure he’s going to have a thing or two to say about Dove’s behaviour and I doubt it’s going to be pretty.
That is a smart idea, BUT…. the store owner is Sam’s dad.
Dove could easily still pull the “favoritism” card by saying that “since your daddy owns the store, of COURSE he’d try to put things in your favor.” He’s a person that would probably want to call upon a third part who is outside of the situations to check these things.
Although, I feel that Larry prepared him for someone like dove. remember when Larry had Pops act like such a person (albeit, at a lesser level)? Sam just needs to focus on how to handle this situation as he’s already familiar with it.
Surprise, sunrise Dave is ass. Although I must admit pledging his allegiance to Dungeon Boss was one epic thing.
I was hoping for showdown of Dave vs Dallas along side with Tyraxion vs Chain Lord. Bring me back to time when we hijacked session and started killing each other instead of adventuring 😛
wouldn’t this actually be the sort of thing Sam was talking about here? https://d20monkey.com/2014/08/08/dungeon-run-sam/
Yes. Yes it would.
And if Sam doesn’t follow through, he’ll have lost the respect he got for that.
…Hilariously, Dove also is overlooking the fact that Sam called -Dallas- on her grudge and poor sportsmanship at the same time. If Sam were playing favorites, he’d have overlooked Dallas’ actions there and -not- given her that sort of warning. Sam’s a decent GM. Dove’s point about secret notes and dice rolls doesn’t really hold water. Not every action needs to be communicated publicly to a group and the results of every roll don’t need to be shown. Too much transparency regarding what the GM is doing can cause the players to metagame, which ruins immersion.
And personally? This is why I only GM for people that are either good friends or referred by people I trust as good judges of character. One bad apple can make a game -massively- less fun.
However a mutual scolding with no ill effect for either side can make for effective obfuscation. It “looks better” for Sam that way. After all, it’s not like Sam’s scolding had any impact on either side, but it could have been said to provide the appearance of even-handedness.
I beg to differ. Dallas really did try to put her personal feelings aside and tried to work with Dove to share the win.
That or she made it look that way.
Dove did go a bit over-defensive though. Sam didn’t once say “let’s check those dice.” He didn’t accuse Dove of cheating. But Dove immediately turned on Sam and accused him of collusion. (You’d have to wonder what methods would be available to prove or disprove such allegations though. They’d obviously happen in the past, so wouldn’t there be some way of verifying a GM’s rolls just to prevent sour grapes?)
This back-and-forth isn’t over yet. I very much doubt the author will let this end on a “the protagonist loses this battle” note with Dove claiming moral victory. (Be interesting if he did, though.)
It’s been mentioned a few times, but all you have to do is point one of the store security cameras behind the screen. You can pull tape on any roll Phil cares to challenge.
I find this kinda sad. The sad truth is that Dove COULD be a great gamer, if his elitist and misogynistic attitude, combined with epic douchery didn’t get in the way. He knows how to play, but only through the rules, not the spirit.
But, he is an asshole, and a manipulative jackass. In every game I’ve been in for the last 30 years, the GM openly encouraged secret notes and pulling the story teller aside. The philosophy behind this was that even though the players are behind the 4th wall, the characters aren’t. It’s nice to have the players not know what’s going on so they don’t have to try and separate IC and OCC info and motivetions. It is more fun to figure it out on your own. And secret roles are a part of a game. Sometimes the GM doesn’t want you to have the extra clue as to what’s going on by asking you to roll perception, because even if you fail, you’re on guard.
Dove made a shrewd move when offering himself to the drwgon, and it worked. Dallas made a smart move, calling on the Mother and it worked. No favoritism. Although I will admit that Sam did show some glee in killing off Dove (not that I blame him).
All of that aside thiugh, Dove crossed the line when he made personal attacks on Dallas. And he should be banned just for those.
Sorry, a bit wordy here.
My problem is he dragged Sam into this. Sam hadn’t demanded to see the dice. He didn’t state Dove was cheating. This was one player saying this to another. All Sam did was sit there. Which is what he should have done.
In short, this sounds like sour grapes. And I do have to wonder: does the game store have any mechanism in place to protect against these complaints, like a webcam watching his rolls? It would make sense in a tournament.
I’m glad I’m not the only one calling Dove a d-bag! It’s been a while since I played and thankfully the last few years were among folks that were just in it to have fun.
I really cannot grasp why some people are anti-female in gaming. Maybe it’s because I have had gaming groups where the ladies are the majority, or have had females in the games that I have run. I’ve enjoyed their presence and will be encouraging my little girls to play RPGs when they are old enough.
I actually play with several ladies in a Skype-based gaming group. Each has brought very exciting developments to the table, like one who plays a halfling nun with a penchant for grapple and a sorceress with an ice theme and a downright devious mind. The GM, a guy, actually plays a female thief with some swashbuckler built in that’s proving super competent. Another young lady plays a male half-orc barbarian that does most of our damage. Meanwhile, I serve as the magical artillery with a side order of weapons development, who also happens to be a blacksmith with a taste for ladies of the evening, so to speak. He’s got a brothel story for most any occasion, and most of them just get kind of weird.
I don’t think people are anti-female in gaming so much as people are anti-feminist in gaming. It would seem to come down to the kind of time that people have in the midst of it; if you get someone who’s constantly screaming about how wrong the plot is or the like, you’re not going to have a good time. If you get someone who’s playing the game and doing quite well, you’re going to have a good time. We, for example, have a good time.
See, most of the time, whenever my character gets fired up about how fighting ogres reminds him of this giant’s brothel he was in where all the non-giant clients were given stepstools and grappling hooks in case of emergency, he gets a smack in the head from the nun. This commonly involves impressive jumping. But at the same time, the blacksmith–who started off as chaotic neutral but has been drifting toward chaotic good thanks to some ongoing efforts from the rest of the group–has also been spotted doing charitable works, albeit begrudgingly, and divvies up the loot following adventures with an even hand that’s astonished most everyone. This makes the nun–who was herself something of a wild child before taking up the cloth, living as a former bard on the road–generally happy, and she’s taken to buying the blacksmith a drink at a tavern when not in battle as a way to reinforce the positive behavior. That and she’s not a nun who’s above the booze.
But see, that’s what it is. There are no cries of “check your privilege” or anything like that. These are characters being characters, and friends operating same in a group. I may never meet some of them face to face, what with the geography involved, but they’re still damn good friends at the end of the day, and that’s really what matters when it comes to gaming.
Because to some dudes, gaming is a boys’ club, and girls invading their space is threatening. It’s pretty dumb. At least it’s not as bad as it was when I was a teenager, but it can still be a pretty toxic environment, unfortunately.
Steve: and at the end of the day that’s how it should be 🙂
Jim: I remember those days pretty clearly, I started gaming in AD&D it was more a “really Dove…REALLY?” Tho in rereading Dove’s monologing it seemed that in his defeat he really didn’t want to just save his name but wanted to do some more emotional damage to Dallas.
I have to give Brian F’ing Patterson huge credit, to be able to write such a provocative character like Dove. That single character has inspired more talk than many others, and Dove is definitely a well realized character. Good job Brian!
And on a personal note, there is no punishment that will serve to rectify the situation. Dove will never understand how much of a hated douchebag he is. Nothing will give a person like that true self knowledge. You can’t beat a person smarter. But in Dove’s case, I think of the movie Airplane, when the hysterical woman is causing a stir. And the line that formed to help calm her down. Dove’s line is longer, and they are well armed. I’ll take a number. (667, damn, even the devils in this line!)
Hmm.. *fishes around in a pocket* I am…. #271. I’ll let you borrow my quarterstaff so you can get him twice when it’s your turn!
I have 843 and some Brass Knuckles. Anyone want to borrow them
Are you guys recreating the Beating Line from the classic movie “Airplane”?
hey switch with me I have 935 and duffle bag full of money … the Mob’s money to be precises. Shoot I think they are getting close.
just hope someone in front of you doesn’t have a vorpal banjo and good luck 😛
Sam has a cool hat. Where did he get it?
If I were to hazzard a guess, he got it from Amy. She seems to have a thing for bizarre head-wear. 🙂
Dove did nothing wrong
This is exactly what Dove would say. Are you Dove come alive?
But on a more serious note, yes, yes Dove has. Whether or not he has cheated, he has been a misogynistic, selfish prick. He explicitly called d20 games a “man’s game,” called the GM’s girlfriend a wench, and instead of sharing a victory with a female, he decided to-out of pure spite!-throw his lot in with the boss. He literally gave up winning, just so that he wouldn’t have to share a victory. He has done very little right throughout this tournament.
Also, to further back the notion that Dove has been cheating, beyond the points already made, I would like to point out that every. Single. Move. Dove has made has been extremely risky and required high rolls to work. He built a character based around criticals, and trying to convince Tyraxion as well as the Chain Lord would both have required EXTREMELY high rolls to not be insta-killed due to sheer audacity.
Why do i get the feeling that Dove somehow gained that voice of the DM power Sam had at one point and has used it secretly to roll lots of 19’s & 20’s? but i agree that that was a lot of natural 20’s he rolled.
Dove has no reason to complain about Dallas’s note. Dallas’s character was praying silently, therefore Dove’s character would have had no way of knowing what the content of that prayer was. A note to the DM was absolutely the way to do that. In the game I’m currently in, one of the party members periodically has visions. Because they’re, y’know, in her head, the DM passes the player a note detailing what the vision is. Hell, for the longest time the DM wouldn’t even tell us what the passing of the notes even meant, because the character doesn’t show any outward signs of having her visions, and does not tell the rest of the party when she has them, so in-game our characters had no clue they were even happening.
Man, that’s a pretty big stretch to be able to say “I actually won, neener neener.”
Eject his ass.
Notice in the picture, Douche..errr Dove’s dice caddy has 2 different d20’s in it. So it wouldn’t a stretch to think he has a legal d20 and a rigged d20.
If he truly feels that Sam is not impartial, and only rewards his friends, then why enter in a tournament run and played in by such inferior players?
I’ve been playing since the days of the colored basic edition boxes, and I’ve always rolled behind a screen or some barrier. Notes have been passed, hell, we would even get up and leave the room when things warranted it. Anyone complaining was asked to explain their reasoning why the should be privy to a confidential section of the game.
Dove being so quick to monologue makes me feel as if he had this “Script” rehearsed in case he got caught. He probably had sections planned based on who caught him so he could lay blame on them, diverting the attention from him.
If it was me, I would simply ask him to leave and never return, and a promise to monitor him for any attempts to ruin the reputation of the Store or myself. People in his position usually crawl under their rock when a Slander or Libel case is threatened. Especially when it might harm a business.
Did anyone else notice that Dove was the first one to bring up any allegations of cheating? I think he might be subconsciously scared of being found out.
Indeed it is true. Hell Dallas even inturupted Sam mid description telling him to wait that it wasn’t her die it was Dove’s. He then asked if she was calling him a cheat. Her response was that “[She] wouldn’t be surprised.” Dove then begins his attack without letting her get another word out.
Agreed. It’s interesting and I hope we see Sam stomp a metaphoric mudhole in his rear on Friday.
“Take all of my dice and perform any tests you like,”
To me this means whipping out “the Hammer of Truth” and seeing if there are weights in them. It could be that these are simply “lucky dice,” standard dice that are naturally imbalanced towards one side by their nature but smashing all of his dice in front of him would be great.
“well, Dove, it doesn’t look like your dice are weighted; or at least were. You’re still banned though. Passing notes between players and DMs is an acceptable practice when being done to increase drama. Although you wouldn’t have been able to do that with your bargain since Tyraxion is right there you wouldn’t have attempted it because you want other players to know just how screwed they are in this situation. She prayed to the Goddess of Death, something that can easily be done in silence. The note did exactly what it was meant to, it increased the tension of the moment as you knew EXACTLY what was about to happen. The Chain Lord would have never been swayed by any argument you made. You had given yourself over to Tyraxion. That’s one of the risks of making a gambit like yours. Even if you succeed it can still come back to haunt you, in this case sooner than you think. For you to try and take her victory for making the same gambit that you did simply because a note was used is reprehensible. As for bringing up what happened in to her in the industry, that was just a low blow. It was a disgraceful move by a sore loser. Just like your accusation that this game was rigged. If it were rigged don’t you think that my girlfriend would have won? Of course my friends ended up making it far in this tournament. They’re my friends so they’d sign up and they’re great players so they’d end up making it far. As a person I hate your guts but you’re still a damn good player and almost won. The fact is, no matter how you slice it, you lost and you can’t stand it. I will be reporting your behavior and you will not be allowed back in this store.”
I… didn’t even think of that one. As I’ve noticed on daytime TV, one often projects their bad behavior onto others. Good call. XD
Now that I come to think of it, who wrote that wretched review of Dallas’ new product?
“Impostor, Dallas Noble”? “this girl” who “infiltrated the gaming the gaming industry seemingly to bring it down from the inside”?
The notion that someone would actually write that stuff about a professional game designer, specifically because she is a young woman, fills me with rage. White hot rage. (Tempered, of course, by the fact that this is the “punchline”, so to speak, for a comic page, and is meant, along with Dove’s elongated bout of projection (*), to elicit just that emotion.)
So kudos, Brian, for your portrayal of the misogynist recesses of gaming, because it definitely got my goat!
(*) Of course, more modern formulations of psychological projection are left to a few paragraphs at the end of the article. Maybe I should find a 101 article on some psychology website to link to…
I may be misremembering (don’t have time for an archive trawl) but I seem to recall Dove himself is the one who writes for the local paper or something like that. So it’s quite possible he’s literally quoting himself here.
There are people who have that reaction to women who are RPG developers, sad to say. Especially if they dare to suggest anything “feminist”, “social justice” or “Not identical to Basic D&D 1e.”
Point of order, you douche: you betrayed the Mother of the Dead, and offered to be Tyraxion’s herald. You DON’T get to pull a double-cross on the dracolich, as it seems the Mother is an unforgiving deity… and I don’t think Tyraxion would’ve been merciful, either. You’re just pissed cuz your treachery caught up to you that fast.
Dallas needs hugs. Stat.
+1 on both statements
Another +1. Dallas is an unrepentant ass and I hate players like him. Also, I think 18 was the lowest he rolled, which is suspicious.
I’m certain you meant Dove instead of Dallas.
I really hate people like Dove. The one punishment he DEFINITELY deserves would be having each of his cojones snipped in half with a pair of rusted and corroded pruning shears while still attached to his scrotum and then cauterized with a hot plate. You know what they say; “Better having no balls than a useless pair.”
Ouch. Whatever happened to a good old fashioned shunning? People crossing the street to avoid him. Hanging up on him on the phone? Not answering letters or emails?
Does anyone else think that this seems like an excellent scenario for a “final test” or a crucible for Sam’s induction into the GM guild?
I mean the setup for the whole thing, Larry porting out because he was out of time, a “professional gamer” who has a reputation for being ruthless showing up for a, excuse the language, two-bit store’s dungeon run where the main competitors are friends of the GM.
How do you handle the situation when things at the table start to get hostile? Do you let the power-gamer take over your table? Do you show favor to your friends? Or do you handle it as the mature, benevolent and neutral GM, allowing for the best roleplay and rollplay to decide the outcome?
I didn’t consider that this might be a test for Sam. He did well in his first injunction. Now Dove’s stepped in it and gotten personal. If this is Sam’s test, I see many more signed sexts from Amy in his future.
In retrospect, Dove isn’t really a good gamer, even if you discount his arsehole tendencies.
—–
Even if his dice isn’t loaded, too many of his outstanding moments in the DR depended on dumb luck to happen.
He claims to be some sort of underdog, but lets not forget he bought 3 thugs subordinate to try and overpower other players through numbers. And yet he managed to lose all his subordinates to one unexpected move by a single opponent, before they could do anything.
To be fair his maneuvers to surf over the lave was genuinely clever. I’ll give him that.
But after that? Not much that would qualify as smart. He killed another player through sneak attack, with the help of one of many convenient may-or-not-be-cheating rolls.
And becoming servant of the dragon? Seems a good idea now that it worked, but it was too risky and unpredictable and… I’ll just go and say it was stupid.
Working with Dallas would have more chances of killing the dragon, he could still be a backstabbing player and killed her during the fight or right after destroying the final boss. Even if his character died in the fight, by the rules victory would still be to the last player who died/got closer to the heart.
But no, Dove’s pettiness lead him to try and deal with the villain, with a really high DC that he only passed with another convenient stroke of luck.
Like if a rogue decided to run up a slime covered wall just to not divide treasure with the party. If even he succeed due to a crit, the decision in itself was still stupid.
But then Dallas managed to invoke her own bigger fish to the fight that, even if also an insanely difficult maneuver moved by desperation and luck, was lore-adequate and necessitated a high roll* just like Dove’s maneuver. So, yeah, I can’t really say that was unfair to Dove as hes claiming to be.
And what does the self-entitled ”elite gamer” do when facing the giant probably mindless undead? Reason with it, betraying the final boss just behind him. We know Dove read the setting primer handled to the players, he should’ve known that was a bad idea.
And the worse thing is that there were way better choices. Use his fire-elemental floating power and possibly possibly some of his spells to get the heck out of the way, let the Chain Lord fight the dragon and deal only with the victor, or even try to blast both at the same time. Just using the last maneuver to kill Dalla’s character while she was still praying would lead to better chances of victory.
But the super dangan ronpa level roleplayer decided to just repeat the last thing that worked for no good reason instead of actually thinking of something truly clever, and died horribly because of it.
And now he tries to paint himself as the winner that fought against truly horrible opposition and that Dumbledore should give his house last minute points because of his nobility and all that dancing.
So, Dove isn’t:
-A player of outstanding skills (he’s decent on using character rules to his advantage, but not much more than that).
-The oh-so-wronged player that got the short end of the stick.
-A good strategist.
—–
On a side note, I do believe Sam should show all the rolls made in front of the players for clarity sake.
Secret notes are fair, as long as the GM keep them on hand and the players are allowed to to see them after the game (or even after the action described on the note was resolved).
Adendum: This was not meant as a response to anyone in particular, and I apologize if it sounded too angry.
I just really, really hate Dove.
The whole thing summed it up fairly well.
You mentioned the part that made me tweak with the group ganging up on him, even though he brought his own flunkies with him.
What does “elite gamer” even mean? Maybe it’s the fact I’m not a native speaker. But the whole notion seems ridiculous. I’m pretty sure that is the whole point of this comic, to point out how ridiculous these things are. But then there are people who think and talk like this in the real world.
“Elite gamer”? Would that mean a gamer that is of a higher class or standard than others? Do they have a better sort of fun while gaming? Or what?
But here’s the thing. Dove himself doesn’t seem to have the same fun that most other gamers have when they are gaming. His fun is generated by coming out on top of everyone, rather than enjoying the experience with like-minded people.
He really didn’t seem all that excited when he initially signed up for the tournament, his 19’s and 20’s weren’t joyous occasions when they happened. It felt like his only glee came from when he thought he had outsmarted Trevor, outsmarted Dallas by betraying her, and now when he’s making Dallas feel like nothing emotionally.
He may or may not have been grinning when he slew Amy’s mage (that is, when he rolled the natural 20), but he certainly was when he requested that Sam “send [his] wench to fetch [Dove] another soda”.
at every table I have ever played at, which is a respectable number, Dove’s behavior would be grounds for forceful ejection.
We run by a three strike system, the first would be his trash talking other players in an unfriendly manner (there is a difference between good mannered ribbing and being an @$$), the second would be his misogynistic comments to and about Amy, and the third and final strike is his current treatment of the GM. When I play the GM is in charge, he is not needed to be totally impartial and the very hint of cheating is by itself grounds for ejection. people like dove are not welcome at my table.
Ok. So Dove’s an ass, yes.
But thing is? I’d be pretty annoyed at the way things went down as well. Chain Lord being summoned? Sure, that’s fine, even with the secret note.
But it one shotting the character? That’s a lot more iffy. Yeah, you can argue he perhaps brought it on himself by trying to reason with it, but it quickly gets into dubious, dubious ground because it’s well known that no one else around that table likes Dove.
But then again, I guess Dove could have been aiming for that. It’s very difficult to avoid favouring one player when you have a friend and an enemy – either you subconciously favour your friend, or you postively discriminate towards the enemy in order to ‘balance out’ your own tendencies.
I dunno. It just struck me as kind of vindictive, Sam splorching Dove.
Dove gave his soul over to “Tyraxion the Undying” and is himself nowhere near god-tier with his character. To another player his nigh indestructible. To something like the Chain Lord, he is but a fly. Especially since he is probably now treated as some sort of favored enemy. Trying to cheat death like this probably gave the Chain Lord, who could go toe to toe with the dragon and win, some incredible bonuses. As for the one shot… Dove could have used magic. That move ability may still be reset and he could have avoided the attack assuming that he had the ability to do anything at all. He definitely did not expect the Chain Lord to be summoned which means it could very easily be considered a sneak attack. This usually puts him at a disadvantage, making them flat-footed and suffering severe penealties with a “surprise round.” Not surprised that Dove got one-shotted myself. Its like a musing I once had on Gods in general:
“Who would be more powerful, a deity of the moon or a deity of the sun?”
After briefly listing abilities that they would probably have in my head a simple statement rose to the surface of my mind and overshadowed all others. “It doesn’t matter which one is more powerful. You’d be dead either way.”
If Dove wanted to cheat Death then he should have become a Tax Demon.
Yes, I know.
But DM Fiat – and honestly, if I was sitting in Dove’s chair, I could easily see the Chain Lord there as DM fiat – deaths just..aren’t really acceptable.
I think we should remember that most of the deaths on the event were insta-kills, where characters who didn’t get the way out of the trap/monster or suceeded a test were instantly destroyed.
-Dustin’s entire group was killed because of a lava trap.
-Dove’s henchmen went the same way.
-A bard was killed by a single bite of a lava dragon.
-A cleric was thrown into the lava.
-An earth-mage (being played by the Gm’s literal girfriend) was killed by a single sneak attack.
-Tyraxion killed three characters with a single breath attack.
One-hit-kills/Save-or-die dangers seem to be standard in this dungeon, far from being something limited to Dove.
And they went in knowing full well that the dungeon was going to be lethal.
Again, Dove is pitching a little baby tantrum because his gambit didn’t pay off, and is apparently surprised (next page) that he’s being ejected (probably permanently) from the store. He’s an entitled jack-off who needed the hard lesson of a DM standing up to him. Whether the lesson sticks or not is entirely up to the author.
My issue isn’t the one shot kill. My issue is that apparently the cleric is able to summon monsters that can one shot kill players, with no effort or foreshadowing legitimizing it. I doubt that it would have worked if they had tried it for any reason but to beat Dove. Pretty much classic deus ex machina in order to beat Dove.
Fully agree with the majority of what Mr Soares said in his post. Dove immediately went on the defensive and then deflected it into an counter attack defense.
I question Dove’s claims of being an elite gamer…. because of the following points.
Fully love playing the part of a Rogue and the passing of notes to the GM is a mainstay of the class. Don’t want the pious paladin knowing you’re actually commiting a crime to further the group’s goals afterall. And sadly enough, the only people that truely ever complain about the issue are those that are affected negatively by it on some level.
Someone else also pointed out Dove’s connection with the local paper, which also goes to show who is the one out to discredit the other.
Sam needs to step up and accept the challenge that Dove issued openly.
Test the dice in front of everyone, but just the d20 that was used.
Additionally, the player that rolled the die; Dallas; always has the right to petition the DM for a re-roll if they felt that the roll was not legal. IE… not their die, cocked die, etc… It is up to the DM as to whether they will allow a re-roll.
Dove’s complaint about secret Dice rolls by the GM? … Duh… random encounters, traps, monster perception and spot rolls, percental dice for sucess or failure, etc…
So… in response to Dove’s claim of being an elite gamer, I am reminded of a quote from a very wise man that I must now paraphrase.
‘You keep using this term… I do not think it means what you think it means’ – Inigo Montoya
+++. All I have to say to this!
I find it really weird that his argument of her not being a ‘real gamer’ rests on her being a published author of a unique gaming system. Who apparently got one John Wilson Croker level review. Its like saying someone is not a car aficionado because they designed, and built their own car line that was not a huge success.
I play dnd all the time and if a note is passed to the Dm we all deem it fine as the Dm needs to know if the player is going to do something massive but within rule guidlines and it even states in the DM hand book to now and then roll rice Randomly to scare or at lest make the players worry a tad bit and as the dm his dace must be seen by any one on the table anyway.
Should I point out the hypocrisy of his complaining about Dallas getting “divine intervention” based on lore when he, just before, pulled a dubious gambit that he got approved due to setting lore?
I had forgotten about Dead Iron, and what the paragraph meant. I reread all of d20 and now I get this a lot more.
Man… I’m rereading the comic at the moment… And this page is why I so desperately wanted to skip this segment…
Hats off for such a disgusting villain, I hate him enough to not want to read his BS, but love watching his double dealing self beat.